Breaking the Mold: How Fred Boothby’s Bold Business Model is Shaking Up the Industry

Alex Husner  
Welcome to Alex & Annie: The Real Women of Vacation Rentals. I'm Alex 

Annie Holcombe  
and I'm Annie, 

Alex Husner  
and we're joined today with Fred Boothby, who is the CEO of Enjoy Unique Stays, Fred, it's so good to see you. So

Fred Boothby  
great to see both of you ladies too. Well,

Annie Holcombe  
great. It's been a busy year, and I know you have been busy, most of all, recovering from the hurricane that came through your area, but before we dive into things, why don't you give everybody a little background about you and enjoy unique stays, sure.

Fred Boothby  
Well, thank you so much for having me on. It's pleasure to be here with you guys. I know we've been talking about doing this for a while, and still hoping to have you guys come visit some of our properties and and stay in some more places, but it's great to be on with you today. My name is Fred Boothby, the CEO of Enjoy Unique Stays, we design, build and manage experiential stays that help people escape the ordinary. We've been doing it for about five years. I sold another business about two and a half years ago, and in Florida, moved up to our main markets are in Carolinas and Tennessee. I'm Chattanooga, Tennessee are our biggest market. So moved up there, and we manage about 140 properties in the markets of Chattanooga, Tennessee, Southwest Michigan and western North Carolina.

Alex Husner  
Awesome. Yeah, you've got absolutely spectacular properties on your program. And I think before we even really got to know you, just seeing some of your posts on LinkedIn and and checking out your website, we were like, Oh my gosh, this is, this is really unique what you've built. And of course, the name makes sense. Enjoy unique stays, but tell us a little bit about your model, because it is different that you you own a lot of the properties. You have investors that have come in with you. It's not, you know, just the traditional homeowner rental model. I think

Fred Boothby  
what's interesting to me is, is hearing everybody's stories. You know, I go to different conferences, and I started going probably six or seven years ago, almost before I really got into the industry. I think the first one I went to is a darn conference, or it might have been a regional conference in Gatlinburg, and I can't remember what year that was, but just meeting everybody and hearing everybody's stories and backgrounds, you know, a lot of people have gotten into it from the management side, a few from the arbitrage side, you know, in more recent years, you know, I, I kind of entered because we were moving to Florida. I promised my wife she could go back, you know, as much as often as she wanted to. And so when she left, we started renting out the house. And I realized like, hey, this, this was back in 2016 or so. I realized that, hey, this is, this could work pretty good. And I had some other long term rentals, started converting those to vacation rentals, short term rentals, and things just grew from there. So, so, yeah, we got into it more looking at it as a real estate investment play. And then I and then after a few years, I realized that I'd gotten into a management business by accident, and I didn't build it with intention and with a focus on, you know, branding and culture, like I should have. So we've had to take some steps back and revisit, you know, what, what we want to do and where we want to

Annie Holcombe  
go. I think everybody that we encounter, but the vast majority, just falls into the business. It's not something that people wake up, you know, when they're 10 years old and go when I grow up, I want to be a short term rental manager and and manage all the chaos that goes along with it. So when you realize that you had to kind of step back and, like, think about, be more mindful about that business, what were the first, I guess, areas of opportunity that you saw as a new manager, that you realized you really needed to fix before you could move forward and grow more

Fred Boothby  
I think, you know, I mean, you get feedback from different places. And we all have our blinders and our weaknesses as leaders, managers, as individuals. I certainly have a lot of them, a part of it too, again, like I was running another business that kept me fairly busy. So this was just kind of like something that my wife and I had fun doing on the side. And then as it got more serious and we started for a team, I think, probably recognizing that we're in three different states with inventory that range from 300 square foot boutique hotel style units up to 9000 square foot homes and three different states. And some of it was different quality inventory too. The inventory was very challenging to brand around. And then I think as I brought some really good people onto the team, the feedback I got from them is like, Hey, we got to focus on culture and people. It's not that I didn't understand the importance of that, but I've definitely learned a lot more about, you know, what, what it takes, I think, to be able to get us to a place where we feel like we're where we want to be with branding and culture. And I don't think anybody ever gets there. I think it's an ever evolving journey. Yeah,

Alex Husner  
it's, it's definitely not something that you can either discover or learn or teach to other people overnight. I mean, it's really got to, it's got to come from the heart, and it's got to come from a place that you know. You've got to have the buy in of your team, that they understand and and they are aligned in that vision, but they also want to make the changes that that you're trying to put forward. But you know, just the workforce in general is tough in this industry. I mean, it's a tough business, and there's a lot that people have to put up with, but I think that's where you know the culture and connecting to the why of why we're doing all this, and why we're running out in the middle of the night and having to. Deal with owners and guests yelling at us, you have to have that, because otherwise it's like you're going to get burnt out and you're not going to want to do the job. So I think that was better to step back earlier on than later. So I think that was a certainly a good thing for your company, and you've grown exponentially since then. Yeah,

Fred Boothby  
it's been, it's been a fun journey, and I think, you know, one of the challenges is deciding, like, what do you want to look like? Who do you want to be when you grow up? And there's so many, I think there's so many great people that I've connected with on this journey, both in the industry and outside of it, and some of them are through ways that you don't even understand, you know, but there's people that have built some really incredibly, you know, good sized companies like, you know, Steve Schwab, Steve Milo, you know, others like that. And then there's some that have built some really awesome brands in certain markets with really incredible properties, like Robin Craig and from moving mountains and and there's a ton of others like that too. And then there's some really interesting people to me, like Ben Wolf and Isaac French and others that, you know, David Gray bird, the experiential stay space, that are just crafting these incredible experiences for people and really awesome nature escape, you know, type of properties. And so it's really fun to see all the different business models out there, and think about, hey, what do I want to look like when I grow up? In which direction we want to go? Because we didn't have a brand or a strategy. It was just like, hey, can we make money on this? Can we make money on this? That's not a way to scale. It's not a way to grow. It's it's actually, it's not inspiring.

Annie Holcombe  
So you were able to kind of not pivot, but like, reset and get your get everything on a like, course corrected, I guess, would be the best term to use, and get your business growing, and everything was humming along really, really well, and then come this awful hurricane that came through. And being from Florida, I'm used to them. Alex gets them on the Carolinas, but North Carolina and the Tennessee mountains was not a place that anybody could ever have imagined would have been affected by a hurricane. And just curious, I've talked to a few managers up there, and you know, they're trying to be positive and trying to look towards the future, but knowing that it's a long road, how has it looked for you and your business? And you know, what do you see as opportunity? You know, one thing I learned out of hurricane Michael for us was that it was a reset for the market. It was an opportunity for us to, like, rethink how we wanted to be as a community, not just from, like, the infrastructure, but just just the messaging that we wanted to to put out for the market. So what are you seeing in your area that, you know, like, I guess maybe some bright light from the hurricane.

Fred Boothby  
I think, first of all, you know, it's really, I mean, the My first thought just living, I live in Saluda, North Carolina, so it's between Asheville, North Carolina and Greenville South Carolina. Some of the hardest hit areas were, you know, Asheville and the surrounding areas. So Chimney Rock, of course, got destroyed. There's some other areas north of Asheville that got hit very hard, a less populated area that is, you know, pretty critical to some near some of the properties we have is the Green River Gorge and Saluda. So, you know, another company that that has some properties around there, and actually is based out of there, even though they have properties all over, they're kind of known as the Amish vacation rental managers, but Heather and Landon with B and D breeze, pretty amazing people. And they're in Columbus, North Carolina, really close to there too. They had some properties down in the Green River Green River Cove area. You go down into these areas, and they're just destroyed. And even though most of the vacation rental inventory wasn't impacted, a lot of the places that people come to, you know, the tourist attractions, it's just, you know, really sad to see how much destruction. And having lived in Florida for eight years too, when a hurricane hits there, it's a totally different situation. You know, the concern is, if it hits high population centers, and it's in the coast, of course, and it's going to do a lot of wind damage, and electricity is going to be out. But if you need to get supplies, and you just it's the land's very flat, the roads aren't impacted. So getting supplies in, getting help and and then to the type of damage that happens is covered by insurance. The recovery efforts, people come swarming in. It's all paid by insurance proceeds. Totally different experience in North Carolina. The you know, insurance doesn't cover mudslides and flooding in, and so vast majority of the damage is not covered by insurance money. So there's not this wave of people flooding in to help because there's no money to pay for it, and so you just got a lot of people that are just in a really rough spot. They've lost everything, and they got to start over. So I think, you know, my heart goes out to the people in those communities that are impacted by it. From a business standpoint, we were very fortunate that only, probably at this point in time, only about 10% of our businesses in western North Carolina. So I think, if anything, it just serves as a warning like, Hey, where are your risks in your business? I know, you know the companies. And was it 2017 when the fires hit Gatlinburg? When?

Annie Holcombe  
When did the fires? I think it was 17. 816, 17. There's

Fred Boothby  
a good operator there. I'm Tom Tom Goodwin, right? I've tried to. Connect with him, but we haven't connected yet. You know, his business was severely impacted by the Gatlinburg fires. So it makes you think, and as a vacation rental manager, and say, Hey, what are the risks that could the systemic risk that could just wipe me out, or or severely hamper me? And you know, you don't think about things like COVID. You don't think about things like, you know, crazy hurricanes in western North Carolina. Yeah,

Alex Husner  
yeah, exactly. It's almost as shocking as COVID, to be honest.

Fred Boothby  
Yeah. So I think just as a vacation rental, as vacation rental manager or operators in the space, we have to say, Hey, where are the risks that we can't see coming, and what can we do to be the best positioned for things, of course, financially, but also, you know, non financially too. Like, there's a lot of things that we, I think it's hard to anticipate, but we should try and, you know, think through contingency plans. Yeah, absolutely.

Alex Husner  
And I think, you know, that's kind of the impetus behind a lot of companies that want to differentiate and expand into other markets. If they're in a beach market, they'd love to be in Gatlinburg or, you know, another mountain market, just to have that balance. And you know, if the worst was to happen, you've at least still got a business that's operational in one area. It's not as easily done as as you could say it is. So you've actually been able to do that, though, and you are in, you know, multiple markets in Michigan and Indiana is quite different than Alabama and then the Carolinas. So when you decided to be multi market like that, were you thinking for that reason, of, you know, business protection, or was it just more opportunities that came about? Yeah,

Fred Boothby  
I think it was, you know, we're in a lot of secondary tertiary markets, which I used to view as a bad thing, but two conversations that have that have really impacted the way I think one was with early on, with Simon Lehman. Simon actually came in and did a couple days of deep dive business evaluation with us when we're kind of at a turning point a couple years ago. And he was encouraging us to focus on existing markets and build density. And I had a strong aversion to doing that because we own so much of the inventory. I had this silly notion in my mind that I would be cannibalizing my own inventory to, you know, in other words, like whatever strategies we'd figured out with pricing and all these other things to outperform the market, you can't outperform the market if you manage a third of the market. You know, theoretically, it's impossible to do. So I had this like aversion to building density in a market. And it's a couple other people in the room, and like, you know, he teased, he teased that thought process out of me, and made me say it out loud. And then everybody in the room started laughing at me, you know, the people on my team, and, of course, him, John Anne, was there too. It was kind of, I don't want to say a light bulb, because I still think there's, you know, some truth to my rationale, but it also makes you realize, like, Okay, that's a limiting belief. And the second, you know, thought I was talking to Steve Schwab, and I was saying, you know, where it's kind of hard, because we're in secondary and tertiary markets, so there's not as much opportunity. And he said his entire business is Secretary and tertiary markets, you know, there's a lot of opportunity. And so sometimes your strengths, you think about his weaknesses, and it's all about perspective. And I think it takes some combination of networking and connecting with, you know, other great people to really understand, like, what are the limiting beliefs that are keeping me from from achieving more? Yeah,

Annie Holcombe  
it's also proof that sometimes I think going with your gut is not going to steer you wrong ultimately. And there was a reason that you were having that feeling. And I think that you know all of this, all the things that have happened since, you know, really for like, I could look back the original real estate crash, and then the oil spill for the Gulf Coast, and then hurricanes and COVID and all the things that have happened over the last like, you know, 20 years or so, it makes you realize that you need to be diverse in your thought process. And it's not so much the limiting beliefs. It's just like there's more out there than just what you see within your space and connecting with people, and I think you're doing all the right things. You're trying to network with others outside your market, and you're being a constant student, and that's really important, I think, for people to not just diversify, but keep that that thought process open to opportunity and creating new ways of thinking and looking at the business. And you mentioned a couple of folks that are doing, like, the experiential stuff. And that's really, you know, I think COVID kind of catapulted that to the forefront of people's thoughts. Of, like, that's what people are looking for. They're not just looking for the same old cookie cutter experience. Everybody has a different, you know, flavor that they're looking for, and if you can find the recipe to provide as many flavors as possible, expanding your audience. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it used to be that it's like, you know, that destinations that had the big marketing budgets and, you know, supported by destination marketing organizations, those are the ones that everybody thought of when they were going to the beach or the mountains. But, I mean, that was the one benefit of COVID for markets like where you're in Fred, because it's like that opened up that people realize. As they could go to these places and they're not as crowded, and they could still get beautiful accommodations. And it did create an experience there. But, yeah, it's interesting to see. I mean, I feel like so many of those smaller markets I had never even heard of, pre COVID, you know, there's some among some of the top performers proportionately over the last few years. So lots changed there.

Fred Boothby  
I realized after a couple years I was like the properties that I feel like, the markets I can feel like I can make the most money owning real estate are not the same markets that I can make the most money managing real estate. So I think you can probably go to just about anywhere with the right inventory and make money. But if you're doing an area where there's no other vacation rentals to manage, then now you've got to build that operations to support a very what's going to stay a very small operation. So I think for us, it was looking at it and saying, Okay, what are if we're going to own inventory and we're going to go into a market, can we start to focus on inventory that's going to enhance our reputation and our brand, and can we do it in a market that has, even if it's a secondary or tertiary market, does it have enough size that that we can grow, you know, get to 100 properties with with third party, you know, owners, and so I think we're in markets that we can do that. But it's not quick growth, you know, it's not like I've seen some companies go into Gatlinburg in three years, be it 200 properties and and have an exit at you know, you know, really good valuation, and you're not going to do that in a market like Chattanooga or southwest Michigan or western North Carolina. Yeah.

Alex Husner  
So, I mean, one of the challenges being multi market, of course, too, is just the communication and your tech stack and how you're able to keep all your team members rowing in the same direction. So curious for what you've found that has worked? Well, what are some of the programs and platforms that you use that are helping you be successful? I think

Fred Boothby  
the software solutions are all out there, all getting better than they were a few years ago. I think the only other thing I'll say before I answer the software question is, I think the one thing that's helped us a lot, too, is, even though we don't have we have, you know, say, three different markets set, probably 80 of our 140 properties are multi site properties. So even though we're spread out in three markets, we do have a lot of, you know, multi site units, anywhere from five rental units to 20 on a on a property. So that that does help with density within the market, but, but it also creates another challenge, because managing multi state properties is totally different than managing a bunch of single family homes and and the systems that you want to use to build a do that are totally different too. And then when you grow quickly, like the solutions you need at five properties are different than 50. That are different than 100 different than, say, 300 and I can't say what you need a 300 exactly, but I think, I think there's, there's less frequent changes in software needs, you know, once you hit a certain point. So that being said, we started out on 365 villas, which is a, I don't know how I found it, because it's a European. Company. Yeah, they did not have good support. I don't think it was actually a bad software for the price, but they didn't have good support. And we left them during COVID, and then we went to a platform that I don't think was there yet, but it get direct.io. John stoffing, sure, who was with track for like, nine years, is there. And I think the guys building get director, are doing a great job. And I think it'll be interesting. I think that's one that will be a software to watch, actually, because I felt like they had good architecture to it. There was just four years ago. There was still a lot of problems with the accounting and everything. But from what I understand, I think that's in a really good spot. And I think there'll be an interesting player going forward. We went through a streamline university that was, like, going back to school that was really intense.

Alex Husner  
Yeah, yeah, I've done it live in person in Mexico. They want you to understand that software, though, it's a good that's, that's a good thing to do,

Fred Boothby  
yeah? But we were at like, probably 25 properties at the time, when we were not in a spot where we were ready to handle an enterprise level solution. So, so I was like, you know that, like, everything's designed where you can train one person to do this and train another person to do that, and you have to hit this three times, twist this. And then it was like, Have you guys ever played Bop It? You know, it felt like, yes, working, on the streamline platform, felt like playing bop it to me. But anyways, so we didn't actually onboard onto the software. We chose not to. We ended up going with guesty. Guesties come a long ways as well. Guesty and host away, I really think they're very similar. They both are open marketplaces with a lot of good solutions for small operators. And there's a few operators that have scaled significantly and done quite well. You know, I think knowledgeable people in the industry will tell you they're not true enterprise and and I think there's the true enterprise solutions are track and streamline, even if they're dinosaurs. So I think there's a lot of property managers sitting on those systems that are like, do I. Look for something else, or I'm going to retire in three to five years and sell my business. I'm going to wait and let somebody else decide where they want to take the tech stack. So we ended up on lmpm, which I think was a good software, and then they ended up selling to inhabit so all along your question was, what? What tech solutions have we I've

Alex Husner  
seen them all. Yeah,

Fred Boothby  
write a book about it. The people on my team would say, like I'm the problem. But truly, I was looking for a software that could accommodate anything from 300 square foot units to 9000 square foot homes, from multi site to single family, multiple markets. You know, I built out these dashboards, these scorecards of information that I felt was I'm really data driven. And I built out these scorecards and dashboards and conversations with people like Brooke from ventori, you know, thinking about acquisition costs and growth, and people like Simon Lehman, you know, who you know, trying to understand what's important from the property management side. And then I come from a banking background, eight years in banking and commercial lending, and looking at more from a real estate investment background and and so I kind of had the management company scorecard and the real estate investment scorecard, and I was trying to find a software that understood the things that I felt were important to be able to structure, organize operations and and get the information that I needed to run the business. So I ended up meeting somebody who's become probably one of my number one mentors in the industry. At a conference, bumped into him, you know, started showing my scorecards, and he just kept smiling. And then he started showing me a software so starting about a year and a half ago, we we, we decided to transition and migrate onto the boom platform. And so that's where we're at today. Is, is on the boom software?

Annie Holcombe  
Well, the great thing about boom is they are an AI based software, so they are able to adapt and build quickly. And so when you come up with some wild idea of something, you need to help you with that, right?

Fred Boothby  
Yeah, everybody talks about AI, the ai, ai of boom, like, we're just starting to implement, we've been using the co pilot AI. We haven't fully put on autopilot, but it's, it's larger, because we're still, you know, might, we've taken some time to migrate into the system, and so we're working hard to do that. But I think the value of AI partly, there is just the speed at which they can develop the software. And we've been on other softwares where we've needed updates and we've needed fixes and we've needed, you know, like very, my opinion, very basic issues to be addressed. It's like moving heaven and earth. It's impossible, and the speed at which they have developed and built out and the architecture and the way that they're going about doing it, and their operation suite, to me, those are the golden gems of of the package, the AI is, the eyes, great and fine, but I really think the dashboards and the art the architecture of the software and the operations side and the analytics is what impresses me the most. We

Alex Husner  
just had Terry White on the show just a few days ago, actually, and talked a lot about what's going on in tech. And I mentioned that, you know, a lot of the systems, even the more enterprise ones in our space right now, the reporting is really not great, right? And some managers, if they've got, you know, some kind of technologically savvy people, have built ways to build their own dashboards, or, you know, do some Power BI things. But for the most part, most managers have not done that. And it's like, you know, I feel like people are really having to operate kind of more in the rears, as far as understanding where, you know what units need to be booked, where they need to be focused on, you know, what is truly profitable to the business and in all aspects? I mean not even just the properties, but I mean your operations and your personnel costs and everything else. So I think that's, in my mind, one of the, the main benefits of boom is that you're able to see so much more of what's going on. And for you, especially being multi market, that's that's a big thing, right? I mean, there's just so much to keep your eye on, and if you're not physically there, that's a challenge, yeah,

Fred Boothby  
well, there's definitely more complexity whenever you want more granular data. And so I think the challenge for a lot of people is they don't understand how to build the information they want. They want. They don't understand how to interpret it. I mean, you think about the number of transactions that we handle this space. Last year, we hosted almost 10,000 guest reservations. This year, I'm sure we'll, we'll do over 10,000 but just the number of reservations, the three scientific counting, the number of splits and fees and number of taxing authorities that you have to deal with, you know, say, 15 plus different counties and states on top of that. I mean, it's just incredible amount of transaction volume. From an operations and an accounting standpoint, it's difficult to just make it all work. And then, if you're like, hey, tell me what this all means. Yeah. Exactly. I think Mikey said, I think there's some really great operators that have done a good job of figuring that out. And I think that's one of the things that makes this space so fun, is there's not a very efficient market in vacation rentals. And I don't think it's very efficient from an from a real estate ownership side. I don't think it's efficient from an operations standpoint. And that's probably one of the other beauties of being in secondary and tertiary markets is, as the efficiency comes, it comes to the primary markets first. So I've, I've got more time to benefit from inefficient markets than than some of the bigger markets do. Yeah,

Alex Husner  
that's true. That is a good point. It's a good way to look at it. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Well, Fred, what are you? What are you most excited for in the new year? I know you've had a lot also going on. Personally, just had, I think it was, what your seventh baby recently? Yeah, yeah, seventh baby building a basketball team here. And you're also like, how tall are you 771? No, no,

Annie Holcombe  
I'm in pretty I'm pretty close.

Unknown Speaker  
I'm 666,

Alex Husner  
are you sure I thought, yeah, I mean, that's, I think Chad's taller, right? Yeah, I thought you were even taller than him, but wow. Well, anyways, that aside,

Fred Boothby  
it's scary when you meet other tall people, though, you know when you

Alex Husner  
actually when I, when I first met you in person, was at DARM, and I was standing there talking to you and Chad, and had to look up to even hear what you guys were talking about. I remember Annie, you were there, but I think you had said you're like, I don't know that I've ever met Fred. I said he was there, but you just had to look really high up. Maybe that was it. I didn't get to see eye to eye. So I think giants.

Fred Boothby  
I think I think I actually met both of you ladies that I think it was spring forum in Chicago, okay, but I've been fans of yours for much longer than, than, than you know, so you know. So just takes a while to get, get, to get people's attention, you know, yeah.

Alex Husner  
Well, yeah, definitely glad that we have connected. But what are you most looking forward to in 2025 I think,

Fred Boothby  
or 2024 we there's a couple major initiatives that you know were critical to us, upgrading the infrastructure. One was, you know, migrating on the boom, which is, or there's still aspects of it that we're working to do, but I think we've, we're well over the hump and to a good spot there, and get to a point where I think it's really going to work well. The second was our reworking our website with icmd, which they've been great partners to work with. It's taken a lot longer. It's been a lot more painful than I realized, but I'm really excited about what we'll do to get there. I think we found a great social media partner in 2024 and so the last quarter of 2024 we've seen some really great things with our social media. And then probably the fourth thing that was a big deal in 2024 is you hit certain stages of growth where it's like, okay, this isn't working. Things are breaking. How do we fix this? And I think we've done a good job of bringing some second level managers on and really building out our second level of our management team, which is critical, and to be able to have the dashboard and the analytics to put information at their fingertips to make decisions. I'm really excited about those things heading into 2025 so with those things in place, I'm looking forward to getting back to to growth again. I think I feel like we're ready to support more growth as we head into 2025 that's exciting.

Annie Holcombe  
That's exciting. So one thing we do like to ask people, What do you think is something that's going on in the industry that maybe we're not talking enough about, and people will always touch on regulations. I feel like we're talking about regulations to the point of exhaustion, but it obviously has to be discussed. But is there something that you think that we're maybe missing the mark on that we need to talk more about?

Fred Boothby  
I go to these different places, and I don't feel at home in any of them, so I go to the vrma, and it's like, man, these are all property managers like they don't I would say that they don't understand or care about the owner, but that's highly offensive to say, and I don't, and I don't think that's a true statement. They're focused on their business primarily as an operator. They aren't in the real estate game. They might have a property or two. Some of them are. Some of them are understanding it and getting into it. People like Matt from cozy down in Texas has built an incredible management company. He's just joined the Vistage group, which I did in the last year, met some other great, you know, people like Scott, who's a Vistage leader there in Atlanta. You know, it's, it's really fun to network and with different people. But, you know, I think there are some of them are starting to understand that there's certain pockets of the real estate game that you know, makes sense to diversify into, but you go to the VR may or the DARM, and it's like all property managers. Then you go to immen, and it's like private equity and the real estate investment groups peering into the industry. And it doesn't really feel like, you know, there's no focus on hospitality there, as much as there should be. And then you. To like STR growth con, and it's all a bunch of arbitrage newbies, you know? So, so it's interesting going to these conferences. There's great people to meet at all of them. But I think, I think at the end of the day, I ask myself, what's the biggest competition we face? And regulation is a big issue, but I think probably the biggest competition we all face is the alternative use of the asset. The alternative use of the asset is what we I think, can we justify somebody giving us their property versus leaving it vacant, versus making the long term rental versus selling the property and with interest rates being high, I think we've all seen limited inventory. You know, inventory entering the market is not as high as it was. And of course, I haven't been at this for 20 years. So I entered during COVID, when interest rates were low and it was popular, and everybody's like, go buy a vacation rental. And it's like, Man, this is easy. Like, you know, if you just hang up a shingle, people are bringing properties to you, but I think as interest rates went up and as the industry started to consolidate a little bit with ADR and occupancy, I think it made us all realize that people have to make decisions with their assets, and if they can't make them work, then they're going to sell them or do something else with them. It's probably not as true in primary markets where you have fierce competition, I think, in a lot of cases, like just recognizing that, hey, if we aren't a good steward of this asset, there's an alternative use for this property.

Alex Husner  
Yeah, even in the big markets, I mean real estate sales and properties, you know, going off the program because they got sold, that was always a challenge for us. Or, you know, even just people moving into the condos that they decided they bought them years ago, and now they're finally ready to retire. That was, you know, definitely something we had to always be working towards to keep our funnel full, to knowing that we're going to lose a sort of certain portion every year. But, yeah, definitely that's a good point. And I don't know that we've had anybody really talk to that, you know, level of what you just mentioned. But very good point.

Fred Boothby  
I think the other thing that'll be interesting too, is you're seeing, it'll be interesting to see what happens with the OTAs. But I think going into the next five or 10 years, people become more aware, like, people still don't know what book direct means, like, right? Yeah. They're like, this time staying with you, and it's like, no, you've stayed with Airbnb five times. What's wrong with you? Exactly. And then they're like, Well, what do you mean? And it's like, you can book direct with us and save and you know, so I think probably interesting to see what happens over the next five years. I think you know whether Uber gets into the market, whether Expedia stays in the game, whether Uber buys Expedia, whether they buy Hopper booking.com you know, the OTAs are going to face increasing competition, and it'll be interesting to see which players went out. And I also think that, I think that vacation rental travelers will become more savvy, and I think that there will be sub brands that get built, that continue to get built, and that will resonate with people. So like, as example, I can walk into a target Walmart wherever it's just whatever is convenient. I don't care, but I know a lot of people, and probably women more particularly, there's some that would never shop at a Walmart, you know, or grocery stores you think of, you know, grocery stores, they're like, No, I would only go to a Publix, or I'd only never go to, you know, a food line, or never go to a Walmart and, and then there's ones that love Target. And then there's, you know, so be interesting to kind of see, like, Are there brands outside of the OTAs that get built in a more meaningful way? You know, what? Companies like V trips or cost ago? I think where it's the easiest is, is the more experiential state brands. And I do think, you know, those are younger, more sophisticated, more social media. So I think there will be brands that get built on social media, and there'll be much more niche and and it'll be interesting to see how those develop. And I think, too, as part of that, the hotels are getting into the game, you know, I mean, the last month, there's been some really big moves by Marriott, well, the last quarter, I guess, right? So, really, really interesting to see how, how the hotel industry affects the vacation rental market.

Alex Husner  
Yeah, there's no doubt. There's no doubt a lot of people getting into the space. Yeah. I mean, I think all your points were spot on, and definitely going to be a lot of movement on the OTA side, for sure. You know, it's just it's becoming more challenging for them to acquire customers, just as it is for us too. So it's like, as those costs, you know, continue to go up. What does that look like? I mean, Google's changed everything so much, you know, as far as you know, traffic from a paid or organic standpoint. So how are we how are we reaching people? And, you know, thinking about it, you know, just not that long ago. I mean, social media really started to explode for businesses in the early 2010s really, but a lot of companies still did not get into actually focusing on an Instagram strategy or a Facebook strategy. A lot of companies in our space still have not, and they might have a page, but they haven't done anything with it. And there's. Engagement, and you've really just got to be looking at that in the coming years, because that is going to be the way that you're reaching travelers now. I mean, travelers have have changed, and if you want to be able to show your brand and not just compete just based on the property on an OTA, you have to figure out ways to do that. But it'll be an interesting year, and many more to come after it, but I don't know if we'll ever solve all the problems, but we know what they are. It's true.

Fred Boothby  
Well, I think, I think what's clear from all of that is the single family home in a neighborhood that caused a lot of regulatory problems, those aren't going to be as financially viable going forward. So that will help for a number of reasons. One, it will reduce the it will reduce the strain that's causing some of these regulatory issues. So, like, if it's financially viable to just convert three and four bedroom homes and single family neighborhoods to vacation rentals, that's not good for, you know, for decreasing regulation. But I think those, those, those cookie cutter homes, are not financially viable anymore with higher interest rates and with and as more specialty inventory comes to the market, and it's not just specialty inventory, like you look at what Marriott's doing with their their deal with sonder, but then there's nobody. Nobody understood the sonder deal, but now, as they make some plays with postcard cabins. And as a trailborne I can't remember the name of the other one. They just announced, but they just picked up. Was it 12 or 100 units with postcard cabins, 30 locations, I don't the getaway model. The Getaway was very interesting model where you didn't even know where you're going to you just knew you're getting away from Atlanta or Chicago or New York, you're going two hours somewhere away to rent 150 square foot, tiny home with no Internet, and you had a viewing window, and they built, they raised, like, what, $60 million and for getaway rebranded to post postcard cabins a month ago, and then just announced a deal with Marriott along with trailborne At the same time. So you know, you're starting to see, I think, Marriott strategy, and was it Hyatt? Was it Hyatt? I can't even pronounce these hotel names, Hilton or Hyatt, which one partnered with under canvas, another outdoor brand. So a lot of these outdoor brands are going to become more competitive too. There'll be cheaper options for outdoor stays. Individuals like us who are trying to be in that space are going to have to compete with innovation and brand messaging and storytelling. And it'll, it'll be interesting to see how it all evolves. Yeah,

Annie Holcombe  
I think it's, I think it's overall, it's good, because it's bringing more focus into our side of the hospitality world, instead of it all being hotels kind of driving the messaging. You know, they obviously want to be in our space as much as they thought we were in their space, so to speak. I know there was a something I shared on LinkedIn last or a couple days ago. There was a ad that came in my Instagram, and it was a hotel in New Orleans, and they were saying they're, they're pitching it as a group hotel, because basically, it's a four bedroom condo, you know, it's a it was interesting, you know, it was, yeah, I think that the interesting thing about it, it was like, Well, is this really something innovative, or is this just like, they're trying to make it, like a new spin on something? It's like, well, that's not new. But I think to that point, it's like, you know, we weren't, we didn't invent hospitality. We the hotels have been doing it. It's so there's just, there's a push and pull. But I think the push and pull makes more innovation happen and makes the space more exciting to be in, because we have, I've joked about it for years, like we're it's where all the cool kids are. I mean, people come into this space and they don't want to let it go, because there's a lot of really great people and a lot of great thought leaders and just a lot of fun that happens here. So I hope that in this coming year, Fred, that we can find some conferences that you feel part of and welcomed in, and I think that you got a lot to offer to people. So I don't want you to feel that way for sure.

Fred Boothby  
Maybe how I stated that came across the wrong way. What I was trying to say is, there's so many different parts of this industry. There's there's arbitrage, there's the ownership, there's the property management. I mean, what's incredible to me is you can meet somebody like Jane's cottages. I met her at one conference. 280 homes up in Canada. Her average reservation is $40,000 a reservation. You know? I mean, we're trying to get ours to 1000

Alex Husner  
Yeah, exactly. So I'll bring it on a whole different level, yeah, no. And I think, I think I got what you meant. It's just like, there's just so many. There's so many. Again, going back to the flavors, kind of more to metaphor. Like, there's so many flavors of our business. It's like, you don't want to pigeonhole yourself in one. You want to be open to all of it and learn, yeah, but it

Fred Boothby  
just makes you realize, like, okay, there's so many different niches, and you got to figure out which niche you want to be in. And then, even if someone's not in that niche, what can you learn from them? So like, you can go to a conference where it's like, there's, there's elements, there's people here that I can learn from. There's people here that are kind of like me, but they're in a lot of ways, they're doing things. I mean, I thought growing third party owners would be easy, because, in my opinion, we do such a great job. I wouldn't owners just want to be with us, and then, you know, we didn't know how to manage owners. You know. So it's, it's so I think it's really impressive. Some of these property management companies that have been built where it's like, how can you keep 500 owners happy? I have no idea. Yeah,

Alex Husner  
yeah, it's a full time job. Yeah, awesome. Well, Fred, if anybody wants to reach out and hear more about you and enjoy unique stays, or just figure out where they're going to see you next year at a conference. What's the best way for them to connect? LinkedIn

Fred Boothby  
is probably the best way I try and keep an eye on messages coming through there. So that's a great way if you want to connect with me. From there, I'm more than happy to share my cell phone number email address with you. I think networking with people in the industry is probably one of the most enjoyable. And that's why I like this industry, because it's such an open place to do so, like so many other industries are are like, but, but here you don't really have any competitor. I mean, you might have a local competitor, but, but other than that, and even then, like, most of the time, they're friendly. I mean, you know, they choose not to be, they choose not to be, but for the most part, they're friendly. And I think it's a really great way to all grow together.

Alex Husner  
Yeah, totally agree on that. We will put your contact info in the show notes, and if anybody wants to get in touch with Annie and I, you can go to Alex and Annie podcast.com and until next time, thanks for tuning in, everybody.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai