Driving Change Through Advocacy in the Vacation Rental Industry with John Hildebrand

Alex Husner  
Welcome to Alex & Annie: the real women of vacation rentals. I'm Alex 

Annie Holcombe  
and I'm Annie, 

Alex Husner  
and we are joined today with John Hildebrand, who is the founder of Hilde homes and just a massive content creator in the short term vacation rentals space. John, so good to always see you.

John Hildebrand  
Oh man, it's so nice to be back when you ladies reached out. And I was like, Okay, here we go. So much we can talk about I'm excited, so thanks for having me back. Yeah, we

Annie Holcombe  
were just talking off camera. It's been a while, and it doesn't feel like it's been that long. And I think the reason doesn't feel like it's been that long as as I got to see you at Verma, and finally, for me, met you in person, which was like, just so awesome. I felt like I finally met like this, like person I put up on a pedestal is just such an incredible, incredible influencer in our industry. But why don't you just give us a little, a little snippet of your background and how you got to be here? Yeah,

John Hildebrand  
man, I think I was on when I was really getting my feet wet. Still, two years ago, I still feel like I'm getting my feet wet and learning every single day what that process is. But in short, I've been doing the vacation business since 2016 I started my own property management company. Hey, we're working. I have a dog named Raven. I think

John Hildebrand  
oh yeah, a pool guy, a pool guy. This

Annie Holcombe  
is definitely not AI generated. Yeah, yeah.

John Hildebrand  
I started a property management company, basically to hire myself and do my own I was buying real estate at the time and managing them, and then slowly started taking on other properties. So currently I own four of my own vacation rentals, and then manage, like another 10 listings right now. Yeah, and then I do, obviously, a ton of content creation, kind of connecting people together, and a lot of advocacy stuff here in Arizona.

Alex Husner  
Awesome. Yeah, I've got advocacy Arizona, Airbnb all a bunch and Alex and Annie here, we've got a lot to talk about. I think when we first had you on the show a couple years ago, you had just been banned by Airbnb, and you told it just a nightmare story, of like, not because you did anything wrong, but like, You got locked out of your account. And I know you, I mean, you've worked really closely with Airbnb over the years, but maybe just kind of catch us up to speed on where the where your love hate relationship is at this point,

John Hildebrand  
maybe it's you guys. You guys are catching me. You guys are catching me at that time again, I actually just had another very interesting case where one of my accounts got suspended. It's the same story the you know, you get those guests sometimes that are 100% fraud. You can tell it. All they want to do is a free stay. They're trying to get money paid. You know, long story short, Airbnb jumps to the guests so fast, before reaching out to a host to figure out what the real problem is. And then, before I knew it, they refunded this guest all their money, and then they left, and then they filed a complaint saying we had cameras inside, which is, like, obviously not true. I would never do that. I'm like, I teach for everybody. Why would I have cameras in my own place? That makes no sense. So you caught me out that time again, it got shut down. I had to, like, do what everybody else did, call a million customer service people and be like, What is going on? This is insane. I made a little stink on it on my YouTube video that got a lot of attention, and then Airbnb people started reaching out to me, like, this is pretty embarrassing. I'm like, Yeah, it's pretty embarrassing,

Alex Husner  
yeah, especially for somebody that has a relationship with them and has helped and advised them over the years too. I mean, I get just, just shows you, even a big company can fall through the cracks, I guess.

John Hildebrand  
Yeah, so love, hate, always, always. I get it, though. Like, to be honest, I get it. I think you hear me probably talk about the I feel like it's two different companies you're dealing with, like Airbnb as a company, like when I when I was lucky enough to go to the office, and the people I surround myself at Airbnb with the ambassador program, or the co host program, which you're talking about just amazing people. Their hearts are awesome. They're all in it for the right reason. And then you talk to customer service, and you're like, Wait, what is this the same? Such a disconnect. Yeah,

Annie Holcombe  
so do they because, because you have been involved, and to your point, seeing you, you take them to task. I mean, you do call them out when they were there doing things that they shouldn't do, but do they have you any capacity where they actually will sit down and say, Well, the reason that we tend to lean more customer driven is because XYZ, and the reason we leave you out here is because of, you know, LMNOP, whatever it just it does feel like no matter what side of the business like, what. Coach, whether you're a short term host or you're a property manager with lots of units, that's the pervasive feeling is that Airbnb tends to lean towards the guest all the time, and so do you have those conversations with them? My

John Hildebrand  
number one goal this year is to get closer and closer to the right people to have those conversations to help improve the program. You guys know me well enough, like, I'm very vocal and very honest of like, my ups and downs and wins and losses and whatever, and Airbnb needs that as well. The one thing I have to say is they do listen, and that's that's why I do speak the truth on a lot of that stuff, because somebody will see it, and somebody will reach out and then want to talk right? Sometimes it's a little too late, like in my incidents, but if I can figure out a way to help that from not happening to somebody else, and, like, learn from it, then it is what it is that's maybe that's the reason why I have a voice for that. But I'm trying to connect. I've been connecting a lot more with my Ambassador team about that and how I can get more involved of improvements, you know, not just on the platform, not just hosting, but like, why are they jumping so quickly on the guest side? You know, we all hear those stories. I was just talking with somebody the other day that with Live Oak lake out there in Isaac French, and he got his listing shut down out of nowhere, and they were doing, like, millions in revenue. I was like, oh, man, what a loss. Like, what's such a bummer. So, yeah, I would love to get more involved in that. I'm always trying to poke the bear enough where somebody will reach out to me so that I can talk to

Alex Husner  
him. You're doing that video. Videos, and it seems to work exactly. Yeah, I was listening to a podcast earlier today, actually, on Lynelle Gordon show, and she had Stuart pack, I believe, or pouch. Is it pack? Maybe we say that, so I say his name, right? What's his name? You know, a manny Stewart. Peck, shoot, hold on. I don't want to say his name wrong. He's kind of important. This old, old guy right there.

John Hildebrand  
Oh, cool. Okay.

Alex Husner  
Yeah, I was just listening to a podcast earlier today, actually, Lynelle Gordon show, and she had Stuart pack out of Outer Banks on and he was talking about, you know, you really need to be guest centric and owner centric. And I think sometimes, depending on where you're at in your company journey or your hosting journey, it's easy to, you know, get get those lines confused, but it's like, you know, we all want to take care of our owners, but you have to take care of the guests. And for Airbnb, it's like, you know, they can't rent to guests if they don't have inventory. So the more that they continue to side with the guests, like, it's just, it's not good for the, you know, complete ecosystem of what they're offering. So I hope that they take what you say to heart, and maybe as part of these different discussions. You'd think when they come to these conferences, even though it's not their top level leadership, that they're actually they're listening, because I know that you're not the first person to express concerns with this to them,

John Hildebrand  
totally. Yeah, and I think they are. My gut says that they're always listening. I get good responses when it does get to that level, slow to change on a company so big, like, I get it, there's a lot of, like, legal and all this other stuff involved, but I'm hopeful. I think I've seen so many changes in my short amount of time already with the company for improvement, and they're always listening. So that part's exciting to me. And I feel like, like, again, that's why I do what I do. And the put the stuff out there sometimes hoping, like other people will comment with their stories, and then they'll read that as well and go, Oh my gosh, this is happening way too much. Like, it's

Alex Husner  
not just John

John Hildebrand  
complaining for no reason.

Annie Holcombe  
They don't have a picture of you up on the wall that like, we need to, we need to set him straight. Today, he's on our radar. Well, on that so, like, on the Airbnb topic, they like, have been slowly working on it. I think you said that you were involved in the beginning of it, but the CO hosting program, so I think they fully launched it out, and it sort of hit the world with different lenses in terms of, like, the interpretation of what it meant. I still don't really understand it. It seems almost kind of dabbling in that rental arbitrage space, but not really arbitrage like you're sharing inventory. So can you explain how that works and the benefit of it for you as an operator, yeah.

John Hildebrand  
So I think the official title they're launching with is called the experience co host. So just to kind of explain how to be a part of it is, you have to be experienced co host. You have to have a 4.8 star review or higher, I believe, and you have to keep it up. If you get below that, you. Be asked to leave. If you're supposed to go through, like a back, they check, like, your history of hosting and all that good stuff, right? So if you get accepted in the program, basically, the concept is, is kind of like a marketplace. There's a lot of hosts that, as we've seen, that are brand new, that are trying to launch and have no clue what they're doing, but they want to learn how to self manage. They don't want to go and hire a property management company or like a full management so on your listing, you can click the button that says, hey, link me with a co host, experience co host, and it will pull up a page search your area. And these are Airbnb backed co host, right? And then from there, each one of those co hosts can kind of make up their own model. From like, hey, I'll charge 10% to only do guest communication, or, you know, I'll charge just a flat fee to kind of mentor you for a few months to get you to where you need to both get. So it's kind of a mix between, like, old school, traditional, like actual co hosting and like a mentorship. Is kind of the way I've been looking at it.

Annie Holcombe  
Okay, that makes a little more sense. I didn't understand that. It was that they didn't dictate what the program looked like. I thought it was a very black and white, like you list your unit and this person manages it for you. Like, I that was, I wasn't clear, yeah. And

John Hildebrand  
I think that's what honestly makes it cool, like, I was lucky enough to be part of, like, the beta version in the in a very long time, they'll give tons of feedback. And, like, obviously, one of the feedbacks is like, hey, when you're co hosting somebody else's property, like, who's in, who's going to be liable if something happens like, if Airbnb is connecting these two people together and they're connecting me, am I liable? Because you guys represent me. What's that?

Alex Husner  
What's the answer to that?

John Hildebrand  
I don't know. It's okay. They definitely tell you that we need our own contracts. They're like, you need your own contracts, like you were as a regular property management you know, we're not, I think they're not going to be like, we can't get in the middle of that, like you have to set it up, like it's your own business. I think it's almost kind of like lead generations, really is the kind of way I look at it, too, is they're sending you the leads, and if it's a right fit for you, then you sign whatever agreement, and that's the part that I like. I like the freedom of, like, you can customize it for every person. Some people just want to talk for, you know, a couple hours here and there to, like, make sure they're optimized correctly, or need pricing. Or, like, some people want the full package. Like, oh, wait, I don't want to do anything. Can you do the full management? You're like, okay, that, well, that looks a little different. Let's do it this way, so it is open to to the host, which is which I think makes

Alex Husner  
it work. Yeah. We just had Steve Turk on our show a couple weeks ago, and that's how he essentially got into short term rentals. Was he started reaching out to properties on Airbnb that he said their review scores were down, but they looked like nice properties. And I know a lot of people that have grown their own quote, unquote Airbnb business, that's the route that they've taken. So now it's kind of connecting the dots, but as far as like how those leads are delivered or generated for for the property owners. Like, are hosts going on and deciding on the site? Like, okay, I'm interested in this. I want to find people that could help me with it. Or, like, where are those? How is that? How is that happening?

John Hildebrand  
Yeah, so there's a, I think there's a couple of touch points. But I think when you're in your process of building your listing as a new host, they will ask you, do you need help? Do you want to co host? Sometimes, in the beginning, they will link with me as an ambassador, and that will kind of guide them that way, and be like, Oh, you need more help. And then me as a host have to have a property in that area. And then it's, I don't know, I think it's maybe 60 miles in that radius, and I can't manage properties outside of that, because I'm technically supposed to be the expert in that area, you know, so I can help them a little bit more with, like, permits and local cleaners and local photographer, whatever it is, more local, yeah. So it's more people in that area, instead of, like a national company, like, oh, we do everything, right?

Alex Husner  
And so you're actually, as a co host, you're helping them find cleaners, local vendors, you know, maintenance technicians, things of that nature, yeah,

John Hildebrand  
and there's, like, these little buttons that they can click on. They're like, Hey, I'm looking just for a cleaner, or I'm looking for some simple advice, or I want full management and and then, depending like me, when I'm setting up my profile on the end, what services I want to offer, right? So from that service, I can be like, hey, my bare minimum is 10% and then it goes up to 25% and then I list out like a few things, like, I can help you find a cleaner. I can do full all the way down to I can help you with full management. And then people can read my reviews and see if. If I'm a right fit for them, or the person next to me is the right fit for them. And they can kind of and then from there, they can send a message, and it's all through Airbnb. It's kind of like a social network at that point. And then they can message me, ask me questions, show me the property, and then then I have the opportunity to see if it's the right fit for me, what their goals are, and then I can either hit accept or decline, and if I hit decline, then somebody else would have to get be interviewed or whatnot. Yeah, it

Alex Husner  
kind of reminds me of Fiverr, how Fiverr works, like it's this isn't exactly like gig economy, because in gig economy, you don't know who's actually picking up your pizza, but you're actually selecting the person doing it. And that's exactly how fiber works when you're trying to find somebody to do a marketing job, or, you know, whatever it is. But, yeah, it's going to be, it's going to be interesting to to continue with this. I know the larger companies are, you know, not, not happy about it, but I think at the end of the day, if it, if it helps get properties to be managed more professionally, you know, really, that loops around to probably a next good topic for us, which is advocacy and raising the bar for everybody and just helping to mitigate these issues that are coming down from the different cities and counties that we all work in.

John Hildebrand  
Yeah, and I think that was kind of part of the reason, also right, because from the ambassador side of things, I would see so many new hosts that would join and without even going down the safety rabbit hole, right? It was like, permits. What do you mean? It's my house, my right? No, they had no clue what I was even talking about. They're like, What do you mean? I need a permit for to short term rental my house. And obviously, we all know how much of an issue that is when people aren't getting permits or, like, being a bad neighbor. So I think it was a way for Airbnb to kind of like, help that part also, and be like, Hey, make sure you tell them they need to get their permanence and their license numbers and stuff like that. So yeah, that's a good segue into advocacy, for sure. Yeah.

Annie Holcombe  
So why don't so? So one we're going to go into advocacy. Recently, again, we were all out in Arizona for this year's Verma conference, and it was really, I think it was, I thought was really great. And I'd love your take on it, to see there be an event that was getting, was raising money for they did fun, had a fun time. You know it was, but it engaged a lot of these more legacy operators that come to the firm event and pulled you in, who's someone who's a smaller operator that maybe doesn't participate in the larger Association at this level, what was your takeaway? What do you think that could have been done differently? And do you think these, this could be something that can be replicated? And I asked that sort of selfishly, because one of the things that I've been looking at trying to do for last couple years, and I hope next year, is a year is going into smaller markets to do kind of road shows with partners, but do some charity work, advocacy work within the market, not necessarily just about vacation rentals, but do some work in the market to help out some of these areas that you know, maybe they're still reeling from a hurricane, or maybe they're still they're in need of some help with homeless community, something along those lines. But I think it's it's really important for us to engage the smaller operators just as as much as the bigger operators. So kind of wanted to get your thoughts on all of it and then see what we might be able to do to make it better.

John Hildebrand  
That's a lot right there.

Annie Holcombe  
I know I'm always giving

Alex Husner  
a lot out will be later.

Annie Holcombe  
Well, first

John Hildebrand  
and for the most important was it was amazing to finally meet you in person. It felt like we've already met a million times. So it was kind of weird. It was like, gave you a hug. I was like, have we not done I know you

Annie Holcombe  
virtually. Our part was,

John Hildebrand  
was very cool. And look, I can't speak for everybody, but I can speak for probably a handful of, like a small property managers as a as a whole, maybe especially with my advocacy group here. I think Verma right now, in my opinion, is, is very intimidating for the smaller property management people, unless you have those contacts or connections with some of the larger ones, where you can, like, realize that we're all together. Like, this space truly is about helping each other. I mean, we are in hospitality at the end of the day, right? Yeah, smaller managers, I feel like, do get very intimidated, especially with, you know, 10 properties or below. Because, you know, the famous question when you show up is, like, oh, how many properties do you have? And you're like, I have two. You know, it's like, you should be proud of those two. That's amazing. Like, right? Yeah, sort of like, I have 100 so I think it is very intimidating for people. I don't think a lot of people realize the benefits of the breakout rooms instead of just walking the, you know, the hall where you see all the partners and everything that could be very intimidating for people, but that's my that's my quick overview of it. I love the idea of the advocacy side of it. It, I think is really smart that a company that big gets more active in advocacy, of course, and then teaming up with wherever they go. Like you said, the smaller space, we're lucky in Arizona to be statewide. My dream and goal is to get a lot more statewide advocacy groups, because it's a lot easier, even on the state right and for you, like people, like you guys, to get involved, because go from city to city would be impossible. So I do think it's, like, very important for Verma to reach out when they're going to Vegas or whatever, Phoenix or whatever, they're like, Okay, this is the statewide advocacy group. We want to heavily get you involved this year, like, we want to tour you around the show. Why don't you invite some of your smaller hosts like, make it feel very welcoming and a part of that community. And like I said, we're all have the same fight at the end of the day.

Alex Husner  
Yeah, that's such a great idea, too. I mean, whenever there's a conference, reach out to whether they're members or not, but even mostly the ones that aren't members, and invite them to come, you know, I mean, let them see it. It's in their own backyard. Let them see what it's all about. And just a great way to grow membership that way. But you're involved with some other associations I know, of course, of course, rent responsibly, and some other conferences that you go to, but what's going on on that scene? We've got Dave and Alexa coming on in a couple weeks now, but would love to hear your take on what's going on on your side.

John Hildebrand  
Man, I love those two. They're just such good people, and Dave has been a true mentor for me in the advocacy space, and, like, really got me out of my shell to, like, speak up about advocacy, which is so cool to be a part of, and just like, share this journey with him. It gets me fired up on more of, like, a national level, but I think the work that I'm responsibly doing is truly amazing and exactly what the industry needs. We've been very lucky, kind of, we were kind of like their test dummies out here in Arizona. We were one of the first, I think that was really working with them. And we were the first, like, statewide. And our group is, man, it's crazier, but our group is doing so much amazing things out here. We've helped crush a couple bills. We help stop a couple of bills. We help rebuild a couple of the bills to make him more friendly on all sides. So, yeah, I would like to start working on with rent responsibly, and even Expedia and Airbnb to try to make more statewide coalitions, and then work with Brent responsibly, because with their guidance, you just get a lot more done. You're not like, trying to reinvent the wheel, like we've already done it before. So why should another advocacy group start from scratch? Like, why not use some of our tools? Yeah, and I feel like we're coming together a lot more. I think advocacy is not the sexiest topic. It's not the click bait, but it's one of the most important, in my opinion, and I think more people are willing to talk about it and like, realize that they do need to talk about it and be a seat at the table.

Annie Holcombe  
Yeah, but I think Alexa and Dave and Dana make a they do a good job of making it fun, because they are such good people. And to your point, I do remember when you first got involved and you were like, no, no, no, this is not my thing. I'm not good at that, and we're all like, Yes, you are. Like, you're the perfect person for this. Like, it's just so right? And so I what do you think something that Alex and I talk about on the show, and we ask, we ask people to come on a lot about trying to help out smaller operators. And I think this, I think the CO hosting, now that you've explained it a little more, is a good way to make sure you kind of bring people in the fold with the right information. But what would you say to like people who are hesitant to want to weigh in and get involved in advocacy, they because they feel like, Oh, it's just government bureaucracy. I don't want to be involved in that. And while some of that is absolutely true, like, you can't hide your head in the sand, and I think it's going to go away. So how do you like guide people, maybe these newer people that are hosting to get involved and have their voice heard and learn and make sure that they're not treading in the wrong way. Man,

John Hildebrand  
I love that so much, because one of our board members, brendy, shout out, brendy, she and I were working on stuff all the time together, and I'm like, why aren't you a part of this advocacy group? She was, she told me a year later about how scared she was, like, I don't know anything about politics and government and stuff. Like, I don't either, but there's other people that can do that, and we can do this and this. We can be the voice for the smaller people, or help write letters or work on the social media part of it. Well now, like she's a board member. She's probably going to end up being a president one day, and now she's teaching other hosts that are small to join the board, to be a volunteer and find the roles that so for me, it's like there's a role for everyone in advocacy, no matter what level you're at. Some people just want to donate money, and that's a. Amazing. We need that other people, they're like, Hey, I let me read the policy. I can understand all these words that make no sense and be able to dumb it down a little bit and be able to explain it and help you readjust that somebody else is like, Hey, I love social media. Let's all work on campaigns together. Yeah, every single person's little contribution, whatever I'm trying to say, really does help. Like, every single person has a has a place in advocacy, in my opinion,

Alex Husner  
yeah, and even just their experience of like, what they're going through on a daily basis. And you know, for these lawmakers and the cities to hear, you know, what is really happening like, versus what is the narrative that is trying to be spun by, you know, different interest groups? I think that's the vital part of it. So I love that you you work with people, and that you've also kind of paid it back, that you kind of got your your feet wet and jumped in, and I've done great, but that you're also helping other people do the same, yeah. And

John Hildebrand  
I think, just to tell a quick story on that, I think the smaller meetups is where people can feel more comfortable, like we just did one in Sedona. And as you guys probably see on the news all the time, Sedona is always like, anti rental, or like, we want some, but not this. And it's like, always this heated conversation. So we just invited the city. We had 20 other hosts that showed up the city came, and by the end of it, she was leading the conversation, and was so open to hearing all of our feedback. Had no idea about solutions like super hog or minute or like all these other things she had no idea about. She's like, Wait a minute. You guys are just normal people. We're all people. We're all talking about the same. And we ended up becoming, like, really good friends, and now she's going to jump on the our advocacy group and, like, kind of teach a relationship between city and host. And it was like, to me, it was such a huge win because it was a bunch of small managers and hosts that we all had an open conversation. The city was like, Okay, we should adopt some of these things, make some changes. This is a positive thing, and it was just because a few of us got together for coffee. Is it literally that simple?

Alex Husner  
Yeah, sometimes it's a

Annie Holcombe  
matter of people just want to be heard and listened to. And then there is another times, like, for this woman, it sound like all she had was one side of the equation speaking in her ear all the time. And nobody was going out there to research, because they thought, well, if somebody's bringing to us, yes, problem, if one bad

Alex Husner  
apple is like this and the rest of them are, yeah, we hear that all the time. Actually, Stacy wesson's mind, our name comes to mind with Cascara vacation rentals, that she was going over a presentation she had for their local municipality, I think. And there's some advocacy issues that they were they were focused on. And when she went through her presentation of everything that they do to deliver, not only great hospitality, but to protect the properties, to protect the destination, to protect the neighbors, in the entire picture, they were just blown away that. I mean, a lot of these, you know, entities they don't understand, like, this isn't just a mom and pop type of a business that's ran by big conglomerate Airbnb. There's incredible technology that that's behind it that, you know is, this is not what it was 1020, years ago, even. But,

John Hildebrand  
yeah, it's cool to see that. It gets me excited. It's fun. The smaller meetups are like a good way for people to get involved on any level, because, like you said, they just want, they want their voice to be heard just like anybody else, and it's a comfortable space.

Alex Husner  
Yeah. So on that note, with technology, we always love picking your brain, and you're always working with all the hottest brands, but would love to hear kind of where you're at right now, and what's your kind of top picks for your own tech stack.

John Hildebrand  
I love this. I was just talking. I was actually just talking with Bill the other day about tech stack, and we went down a rabbit hole for a second. It's so interesting. I think the last time we talked, I was like exploring hiring VAs and like, the training and getting the things out of my head was, like, so difficult, and it was like, ends up being more work. So I'm not sure if I shared last time, but I ended up partnering with Angel host to help me with my properties. And they're literally, like an angel host, like they have the VAs, they have a revenue team that they're on guessing for pros, and then I can focus on what I'm better at, right, and building out the other part of the tech stack. So part of my team now is so big because I have, you know, full time revenue, full time guest communications with them, and then, and then I can go find my other partnerships that I want you know for, like guest screening, is I always use superhog because the background checks here in Arizona, and then, you know, like noise, I'm always with minute. So I got a lot of my time back. A lot of my time back by cleaning up my tech stack and finding the right partners that that work for me. And, yeah, it's been an amazing journey. Building that out.

Annie Holcombe  
Yeah, I love that. That's it's so fascinating just talking with people. And I think there's a lot of a lot of chatter about some of the larger PMS providers, specifically that are trying to force everybody in one ecosystem, and they're not giving them choice. And so it's really about like, how, how do you as an operator, find what works for you, because what works for you doesn't necessarily work for same for the guy across the street, you know. So you don't want to be forced into that. So I think it's being mindful and cleaning up what you really need, instead of being forced into taking something that doesn't serve you. Serve you well at the end of the day.

John Hildebrand  
Totally, totally. And even on one of my properties, you know, just for education purposes and content and learning and whatever. One of those are on hospitable, because hospitable, I've always told people, I feel like it's like the best platform when you're just starting out. It's not scary. It's so easy, you know? So you just put the one property they got the AI built in there now, which makes me look so smart when I'm responding to guests. Wow. I wrote that that looks pretty. So all these softwares, I think, you know, are kind of like working with each other on their strengths a lot more, instead of like competing with each other and trying to overlap. And I saw that at Verma quite a bit. I was watching, like proper working a lot closer with even a super hog or super hog, working closer with hospitable. And it was like, cool to see these companies kind of like, okay, we do this. You do that. Let's work together instead collaboration.

Alex Husner  
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And what Angel host does it actually kind of sounds similar to what we were talking about earlier on the CO hosting side, right? But it's like they're professional in that, and they've got software that not only just helps with your Airbnb bookings, but they're pushing you out to other channels as well, correct? Yeah,

John Hildebrand  
which obviously it helps because, like, booking.com is a whole different beast, you know? And, yeah, all these indirect booking is very, could be very tricky. They help with the spreadsheets and the owners porters, and it's just like, adding to your team. Like my owners know, because I tell them, I'm like, Hey, these are my partners as part of my company, but everybody else, it's all under Hildy homes, which is RAS Yeah, yeah. It's not like they manage my properties. It's a team thing, which is, for me, it's all about branding. And so I'm like, Yeah, of course, this sounds perfect for me. It's

Annie Holcombe  
kind of like white labeling your internal management, which is really smart cost savings, I imagine. Yeah, a lot of cost

John Hildebrand  
savings. Yes. What

Alex Husner  
does minute do? I'm not familiar with them.

John Hildebrand  
Minute is the noise monitoring systems. Okay, kind of like, noise aware. They do smoke marijuana, temperature, indoor, outdoor sensors. Gotcha, they're awesome. I really like them too, because they do a lot of advocacy stuff. But I'm a nerd with learning all these stuff. I'll admit it, especially when it's really good to look at. Like, I know that sounds weird, but like, if you have to look at these softwares all the day and pull them up, and you want it to be easy and minute is really sexy, their app is really clean. It's it's nice to look at. It's easy to figure out if I have a noise complaint. It's easy to send a report, and, you know, show the cops if I need to, or the city and and not get a citation, stuff like that. So, yeah, I love it. Huge fan. I think everybody in this city should have some kind of noise monitoring systems for sure.

Alex Husner  
Mm, hmm, yeah, yeah, for sure.

Annie Holcombe  
I got a question related to distribution for the smaller operators, and it's one of the things I've been talking to at next packs. I get the opportunity to talk with people that have three or four units. And then, you know, three, 400 units. In Europe, we deal with a lot of 1010, 30,000 you know, unit operators. And so, like, there's been a discussion about the adoption of new channels. And in this last year, I don't think it's any secret that VRBO didn't have the a strong year relative to some of the other channels. And so there's more interest in adding channels. And so for you, as a smaller operator, you know, looking at the possibility of Airbnb shutting your listings down, like, do you coach these people that you're working with and say, like, Airbnb is great, this coasting is wonderful. I want you, you know, use the channel to your benefit, but you know, you really want to be mindful as you grow to add other channels within your mix, so that you're not stuck in something. Should your you know, should your listing go down?

John Hildebrand  
Yeah, and I could be a little biased, of course, but I definitely think you you 100% need other channels, even if you don't get bookings on there and you're getting marketing, yeah, exactly. Surprisingly, some people shop. It's weird. I see it happen all the time. They shop on booking.com and then also they book on Airbnb, or they're like, I saw your website, but I'm not comfortable booking direct yet, so I'm going to book on VRBO. That happens to me all the time. And, yeah, yeah. Maybe they're like, trying to make sure I'm a good host everywhere, like, I have, you know, a handful of reviews on on Google. I just think it really comes down to your your bandwidth. In my opinion, it's like, become a master at one, start getting a lot of bookings on that one, and then add the other. I think a lot of people are rushed to like, I'm on this, this, this, this and this, and they're like, and then they're only getting bookings on one,

Alex Husner  
yeah, it's not optimized. Well, it's not showing

Annie Holcombe  
they don't have, they don't have the ability to check on everything. I keep saying, like, if Amazon gets into travel, like we're in trouble, you know, like, suddenly they start doing it, like we're going to be in big trouble. But, you know, I there are people that have that mindset of, like, get me everywhere, and it's really smart. But to your point, it's like, you but to your point, it's like, you need to, like, Be methodical about it and say, like, what makes sense for your time? Because you want to be able to go in there and look at the listings and know that you're live, you know, know that your photos are there, those type of things. But I was just curious, because it just, it does feel like we're in a cycle again, where people are like, Absolutely, I can't be on just one, you know, if you only have one unit, obviously it's a lot harder. But if you've got 10 or 15, I mean, it does make sense to be to try to reach different type of customer bases, yeah, and

John Hildebrand  
I just my opinion on that has always been too. It's like, don't just always chase this shiny object. You always hear like direct booking is a big one. Always, right? It's like, you gotta build your business on direct booking, and I love that, but then they don't take it to the next step. It's a lot of work. It's not like, you're just gonna build a website. Be like, there we

Alex Husner  
go. Yeah, here comes our business. Yeah.

John Hildebrand  
I mean, marketing is not that easy, yeah.

Alex Husner  
I feel like I've said this so many times the last couple weeks, but get on our show also, of like, you know, it's same thing that you just said about getting on other channels, like, get one really good and then you, you continuously add, as you've, like, got it nailed down, because if you just say you want to do direct bookings, it's like, okay, well, I mean, there's, there's so much that goes into that that it's, you don't just start from zero and get to 100 like, there's so much to consider. I mean, yeah, the goals of the company, like, are you trying to build a brand, or you're trying to eventually sell your company? You're trying to get into other markets? Like, there's so many different things that play into the tactics. And I think that's kind of the bigger issue, whether you're talking about distribution or direct bookings, is that people in marketing in general, people dive into the tactics. Like, I feel like I feel like I need to be doing your email marketing, so I'm going to do that first. But it's like, let's step take a step back, and let's look at the strategy and decide what really makes sense, you know, for the course of action. But and you want to be able to prove to yourself, you know, especially in the direct booking side, that you're you're getting, you're getting a decent return, right? Or at least a good, a good return, or a decent return, to be able to spend more money in it, because you are having to spend up front to get something that's going to benefit you on the backside. But it, uh, every, everybody, and myself included in many cases. I mean, we're all of us are not very patient, so we want it immediately, but you have to be patient with some of these things to do them, right?

John Hildebrand  
Yeah. And I'm curious for everybody listening to and you guys also, like, I'm curious too. Like, where's the balance of like, if you spread yourself so thin and you only have one review here, two reviews there, is it more beneficial to have one platform with 55 star reviews, instead of having one or two spread out all over the place? Like, good question. You know. Yeah,

Annie Holcombe  
I think you just need to have the conversation. With yourself, like, what are your goals? You know, because I think that there's some people that, to your point, they want marketing, and so marketing is part of that. That's part of your goal. You want eyeballs, but the direct strategy, if you don't have any money to put behind a direct strategy like that, you're, that's just, it's, that's, that's just a want that's thrown out there in the wind. But if you need to, you know you're wanting, if you have properties that are varied, you want a luxury guest, you know, you go to one channel. If you want to be able to have that last minute guest, you go another channel. And I just had a conversation with a an operator in Orlando today, and just, you know, she was concerned about the numbers that she had this year, but we got into it and just started saying, like, okay, like, you, you don't have a ton of properties. You know, you have a fair amount, but it's not like you've got hundreds that you can put everywhere. So let's look at, look at the problems that you're trying to adjust for. And she's like, well, last minute cancelations, okay, let's find a channel that's focused. So I always like their Wednesday out there. They're a perfect filler for that last minute Well, I really need to get people at a book further out. Okay, you know what packages do that work with a channel that really can drive packages? So I think that people need to educate themselves. And to your point about not being attracted to the shiny Penny. Just because the company has a lot of advertising out there doesn't mean it's going to be right for your market. You really need to understand the market dynamics and who's coming to you, because the channels are not necessarily. The channels aren't driving demand. That's the destinations job. The destination is driving demand. The channels are just harnessing it. So if you understand what the destination is going after, you can find those channels that can compliment it. And I don't think that that people put enough attention into that process as they do to other things. And that's why you know for myself, like there's people like myself that are here to. Help with that and help guide people. And there's no absolutely perfect right way to do it. It's just, it's kind of a trial and error.

John Hildebrand  
I love that. So good. Yeah, you nailed it. That's good. It's so true, though. It is cool, yeah? Because even, like, I'm always trying, like I one of my properties. I'm on Plum guide. I love the way plum guide looks. It looks cool. I'm not getting any bookings. I feel like I'm getting some traffic to my website or whatever, but I'm not getting any bookings. So I was like, at the end of the day, is it worth it? Who knows? Yeah, still. And at the

Alex Husner  
end of the day too, when it also comes down to, if you're somebody that you're trying to grow your portfolio, managing for other owners, having those sites, having merit homes and villas. I mean, those are, like, it's it solidifies you as a really good company that somebody would want to list their property with. So it's like some of those, I always looked at them as kind of like, more like trust symbols in a way, too, and how I could leverage those in marketing to get more owners if we get reservations from it, great, but that's also just something to to be thinking about too as you're making those decisions. But there really are, I mean, there's, there's so many decisions you have to make, whether you're a host or a company these days, on just just about every part of the business. This is not the passive income thing that you see on tick tock, that's for sure,

John Hildebrand  
dear God no,

John Hildebrand  
yeah, yeah. It's so passive. It's a tick tock Johnny said All he does is sit back and collect $10,000 am I? Yeah. Well,

Annie Holcombe  
we had that. We need to get you a shirt that says tick tock, Johnny. Oh my god. Oh goodness,

Alex Husner  
John, it is such a pleasure to connect with you as always, and we look forward to seeing you in 2025 hopefully at one of these events soon. But in the meantime, if anybody wants to get in touch with you and get to see all the amazing content that you put out. What's the best way for them to reach out?

John Hildebrand  
You can always go to my websites. It's John hildebrand.co, or my Instagram. Is this? John Hill, the brand sticky. Most of all my stuff is linked there. Hit me up there with any questions or whatever, advocacy related or small manager related, anything. I'm always I'm always around awesome, or try to be,

Alex Husner  
yeah, we feel like we always see everywhere. If anybody wants to get in touch with Annie and I you could go to alexandany podcast.com and in the meantime, thank you for tuning in, everybody. We will see you next week. Bye, uh, awesome.