Taking the Leap: How To Start Your STR Entrepreneurship Journey, with Tony Stancato

Speaker 1: 0:00

We'll start the show in just a minute, but first a word from our premier brand sponsor, casago.

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Welcome to Alex and Annie, the real women of vacation rentals. With more than 35 years combined industry experience, alex Hussner and Annie Holcomb have teamed up to connect the dots between inspiration and opportunity, seeking to find the one story, idea, strategy or decision that led to their guest's big aha moment. Join them as they highlight the real stories behind the people and brands that have built vacation rentals into the $100 billion industry. It is today and now it's time to get real and have some fun with your hosts, alex and Annie.

Speaker 1: 1:21

Welcome to Alex and Annie, the real women of vacation rentals. I'm Alex and I'm Annie, and we are here today with Tony Sincato, who is the owner-operator of Booking Gather. Tony, welcome to the show.

Speaker 4: 1:32

Hey, thanks for having me.

Speaker 5: 1:35

Tony, this has been a long time coming. I told you off-camera. Big fan of yours Watched you through our LinkedIn community. Just come on the scene seemingly out of nowhere. I'm sure that's not the case, but I've loved to watch your journey and you sharing it with everybody. So why don't you tell us a little bit about your background and how you got to where you are today?

Speaker 4: 1:54

Yeah, so technically I have a manufacturing background. I was in manufacturing for about 14 years on the management side. My last role was at Striker, and so I had a neighbor and a good friend and we had always talked about getting into real estate, getting into short-term rentals. And then we started getting serious about it and we really wanted to travel. Had we wanted, hey, let's we like travel to Tennessee, florida, let's maybe book out getting a place there and essentially we can go check on it a couple of times a year and make sure everything's on the up and up. And as we were doing digging, it was just hard to make sense of some of the numbers we were seeing. Prices have gone up quite a bit in the areas that we were looking. So we just said, hey, why don't we look at our own backyard and maybe we'll cut our teeth here and cut off the scales in Michigan. So we started looking mostly on the inland lakes. A lot of the places wouldn't allow it. And then one day my wife sent me, sent us, a property and it was out in a place we'd never heard of, and started digging, started running some projections, looking at the numbers, and you were just like astounded by the projections that it was saying. So did the put an offering on it and I got another contract and that was in 2021. So it has been a little bit of a shorter journey before us, but it's. It's been fun and we've grown quite a bit over the last couple of years. So we bought that one did really good in the first six months, said hey, why not get another one in the same area? That one was doing really good? And then we started getting clients that wanted us to manage for them or help them find a property in Michigan and we primarily work in Southwest Michigan, anywhere from Saugatuck down to New Buffalo and so we started bringing clients. And then we started buying multi-families and converting those to short-term red stools and so right now I think we're right around 21 to 22 doors across call it a dozen properties.

Speaker 1: 3:52

Wow, that's great. What an incredible story, and I'm sure that's also been pretty liberating for you to get freedom from a typical W2 job and do something where you're able to travel. I know I always see you and your family going to visit these places. Like you said, that's a great part of it.

Speaker 4: 4:09

Yeah. So and we started out we were like, hey, we'll go over there, we'll stay on property. We really like the Southwest Michigan area I'm actually about an hour away from the properties we manage in Ode but we'd go there, we'd set them up, we'd stay there, go to the beaches and all that stuff, no longer doing any of the setup, though that is a tough, tough job, definitely a taxing, even that far it up, but we'll still go over there when we can.

Speaker 5: 4:33

Yeah, so what do you think your as your so again, a short run to get to where you are, which is pretty impressive. What do you think is your biggest learning so far?

Speaker 4: 4:43

The biggest learning. So getting into real estate in general has been on my goal since maybe I was 20, I'm 38, now, right, and I think there's always just this piece in your mind that thinks it's harder than it really is. Yeah, and I'll give a little bit of credit you know, a lot of credit to my wife too. Like we were at the part of our journey where it was like hey, do we want to buy a short term rental or do we want to keep a house? We were in the movie in the middle of moving Do we want to keep the house and rent it out as a long term rental? I was like which one do you want to do? And she's like, why can't we just do both? So, literally like same week, did started long term rentals and short term rentals at the same time and honestly, it's been way easier. You're like, why did I wait 18 years dragging my feet? It's part of it. Is you got to just work up that courage to dive in and learn as you go. Obviously, nothing's paying free, but definitely easier than it's just baited up to this point.

Speaker 1: 5:39

That's super interesting too. I think there's a lot of people that are 100% in that position that you were in, and I would say my husband and I are in a very similar position that we, after being in the short term rental business for all these years and managing properties for other people, were realizing we actually want to have our own portfolio. And where do you begin? And I think there's a lot of questions of does it make sense to start with a short term rental? Does it make sense to start with a multifamily? Does it make sense to start with a flip? There's so many different ways to do it. How did you make that decision? Or was it just that it was just what was in front of you and you went with it? Or would you have done anything differently as part of that?

Speaker 4: 6:18

And honestly I'll say that. So the first short-term rental we bought there was four of us. It was me, my wife, my business partner and his wife and I'll be honest, I've always thought Timid conservative ones. So out of the four people that went to the inspection I was the one per person that said let's not do it. This isn't the one. I'll always find a reason why we shouldn't do something. So the biggest thing is finding good partners that will encourage you, and I think there's a good balance there. And why other business partners? He's pretty built in the metal, isn't afraid of anything. I'm like, hey, we might want to think about this. So there's some good balance. So I think finding people that can help you make that leap as well is a big thing. But you're right, in real estate, there is a lot of difference. Up in, we've only been again since 2021, we did short-term, long-term, mid-term slips. So once you get in, there's just a lot of opportunities that kind of come along. Okay, we're always just focused southwest Michigan and the deal pops up. You're like, nah, that's not a good short-term rental, but it is definitely undervalued and it just spot the opportunity to jump in and maybe take advantage of that opportunity.

Speaker 5: 7:31

So one thing that we've been talking to a lot of people about lately is education within the industry and kind of access to that information, and Alex and I've been in and around this business for a very long time. I started in short-term rentals and in management back in the late 90s, so grew up in it, so to speak, so I know where to go for information and who to contact, or at least have an idea like that roadmap. So for you, what was that journey like? Because it feels like for some people there's just so much information and knowing where to go source it, but then again knowing what you don't know is really difficult to identify, I would imagine.

Speaker 4: 8:07

Yeah, I will say so. I put in my notice. At the manufacturing company I was at to get started full-time in this and I literally left to go to a short-term rental conference Bill Fak, with a scolding one, so they were dragging, holding on to me until they could backfill my position. I was like, hey, this conference is coming up, I'm going to it. You can't work with me, or I'm going really going to conferences and just connecting with other hosts along the way, and I can tell you just finding like a mentor, even that is not way ahead of you, but has two or three properties has been huge, and I'll tell you the first. We stayed on there. Bv and I started picking the guy's brain and this was before we had one. He just gave me a lot of good advice along the way that he was right and it definitely helped make me feel a little more comfortable in the decision-making. I mean our first property, to be honest. We bought it and we're like, hey, it's going to be enchanting family fun house. We thought hey two to three families are going to be coming and there's going to be kids have fun. And he was like what you're going to find in our first book was nine. Guys were like a lot of people, a lot of people. It's their first book game. They're like nine guys, like they're going to destroy it, right. And I reached out to him and he's just, you're going to find that all adults, and even if they're all all guys or all girls, you're going to find that can almost be better. Just, I have three kids, so I know, hey, getting kids ready picking up all the pieces, all the game pieces, and eating food everywhere in the house. So he was a hundred percent right and some of our best guests have been those groups of 10 guys that actually are part of that scared a lot of people away. But you all open the door and you're like. One time I literally had to check my calendar and say did cleaners already come and say they've been great taking care of the properties? Again, despite in mentors few steps ahead of you going to conferences, finding people in the industry that are doing at a high level is a great way to get that education piece.

Speaker 1: 10:08

We had Leo Walton from Super Hog on our show. This probably about a year and a half ago, and he was so funny. He told the story about you could be a great guest when you're on vacation with your husband, but now they are the same person but you're on vacation with your girlfriends, or vice versa, and you're dancing to Madonna on top of the tables and it's like a completely different experience. So I think it's also it's situational and you don't know what situational aspect is going to be better for somebody to behave better. I need to see if you can't make those judgments. But I would imagine that was a big learning that you had and that a lot of people have. You really you can't be super judgmental at the onset of who is coming, but that's tough because you put your hard earned money into buying these properties and you don't want somebody to ruin them. But what do you use? Any sort of screening software, guest screening software?

Speaker 4: 10:59

I have talked to Leo looked at that word currently not using the screen software. A lot of our bookings are through Airbnb, but I do think SuperAug is something that you can connect with that and go through that, but currently we're not. Ways that we're mitigating the risk on those are we use owner-res to property management software and then we basically require extra insurance that they provide on top of that air cover. We're also taking deposits on every reservation, whether it's Burbell Airbnb or direct booking. So that's how we're mitigating that risk.

Speaker 1: 11:38

Gotcha, so you use Honor Res. What other softwares are you using? Are you using anything for revenue management?

Speaker 4: 11:45

What does that look like. So currently I am using Price Labs. We've used that from day one and I can say when we got started it was fantastic. We bought this place and it's an old 19th. Our first one was like an old 1930s farmhouse cheap laminate flooring in there. Kitchen was not amazing by any means and we're like if we could get 500 bucks a night, we would just be to the moon. And our first booking and we wouldn't have been smart enough to put the pricing at that Our first booking was $1,000 a night and then Price Labs was all the way up to 1650 a night was our best weekend. So we would have never thought that we could get 1650 a night for that property. So it's been a huge in that aspect. I am finding that it's having to be a little more manual nowadays, so I don't know if it's just using too much historical data. I'm not sure exactly where they're doing it, so I'm finding it to be a little bit more time intensive on my end. So I've been having discussions with Wheelhouse. That is something I'm looking at. We love Wheelhouse.

Speaker 5: 12:49

I do a great job, so definitely recommend it and I think it's your point, like the manual aspect of it's one thing that we caution people and I caution people at times like these tools are wonderful but we don't want to be asleep at the wheel. You really need to be involved. So you do get to a point. I think there comes a point of like when you start to have critical mass of inventory, like you might need to contract with somebody that can help you navigate, even if it's once a week to meet with you to go over some of that stuff because it is really important. And especially coming out of post COVID, the numbers are so skewed, like just the historical data. You don't have anything pre COVID. You're looking at the stuff that was during COVID. That such an anomaly. So certainly something to keep in mind. But the question I had related to your software was going back to being new in the business. I know that there's been several reports that have shared different companies have shared like the ecosystem of all the software that's out there and it's mind boggling. There is so much out there that if you don't know what questions to ask, or even know what you need, where do you begin? And so for you, was it your mentor that guided you to try this software that you do have, or how did you go for that Again, just begin the process.

Speaker 4: 13:57

Yeah, I would say another huge help along the way has been there can be some bad aspects of them, but the groups Facebook groups, airbnb have posts, so a lot of times they'll do, hey, what's the best software? That's probably asked every week in the air. So just evaluating that and seeing what gets the most reviews when you're starting out, it does. A property management software you can, I think hospitable works pretty well when you're just getting started. So we tried that and that. As we got more, we're like, okay, we need to probably figure something else out. So go back and ask the group and started using over as and then did the free trial and it was just trial and error. But then it was like, hey, don't love the interface. So when somewhere else tried something else, that platform was I couldn't get behind that platform. They kept blocking days off on the accident and then obviously that's a big no when you're trying to get bookings. So went back to owner resident. Been really happy with that. But I would say, yeah, just that grew about and the spirit. And again, going to the short term rental conference, there was a lot of talks about, hey, the two guys from stage, this is what I use. So, based off that say that they trust and rely on those platforms, we ended up using very similar text stacks Interesting, so you went to the.

Speaker 1: 15:18

That was the SCR wealth conference, the first one, and I assume you're probably one to this last one this year as well. I did not go to this last one. Oh, you didn't Okay.

Speaker 4: 15:27

I'm a little bit of a cheapskate. So the first one a couple tickets came out for a couple hundred bucks and we were talking about going last minute and I think it was two weeks before it started. I said all right, let me see if I can find, because they keep going up 200, 400, 800. And I'm looking at the hundred bucks and let me see if anybody's selling any. And as soon as I jumped on there is someone. I have two tickets at 200 bucks. I'm like, all right, that's signed, so grab those ones. Didn't go to this last one, but then I just got back from his boot camp, actually a couple weeks ago as well.

Speaker 1: 15:58

Oh nice. What about VRMA? Do you go to any of the traditional VK Shraddle conferences or DAR or any of those have not.

Speaker 4: 16:05

Yeah, yeah I got many points to get out there and go to those. I think I see you guys posting about going. What about yeah?

Speaker 1: 16:12

I know we one of our missions this year has been to try and bring together the two different sides of the people that they only go to the SDR conferences and people that they only go to the Vacation Rental Professionals conferences. Bringing people together because I think there's a lot to learn from the content that is shared on both sides and it's better to have everybody aware of the information that's out there and just helps the industry grow. For VRMA International, I believe you can go without being a member, so I would definitely check that out. That's an Orlando in October and that's a great way just to check it out, get a feel for this type of content that's going to be there, the connections you'll make, and this one in Orlando is going to be the biggest one yet. It's incredible how many people come and just the conversations you have and the networking is unbelievable.

Speaker 4: 16:56

Highly recommend.

Speaker 1: 17:00

It starts on Sunday. And then it goes Sunday to Wednesday. Yeah, and that's in October.

Speaker 5: 17:05

There's a lot of good content and if you're, I guess ultimately it depends on where you're looking to take your business. Are you looking to continue to grow? Some people like to stay very small and boutique, but it is a really great way to network with a lot of these people that maybe you want to get in touch with. They're going to be there. But overall, just connecting with people face to face is so valuable. It's a good show. And, going back to the SCR Wealth Conference, we've talked to a lot of people that have gone to it and I was curious since you went to the first one, we've talked to people that have been to both of them. When you walked away from it, did you feel like it was substantive, like that you got a lot of information out of it, or did you feel it was like okay, they sparked me? I'm excited about it, because that was one thing I've heard consistently was everybody walked away like really jazzed about what they were doing? But some people were like I needed so much more information. So I think that there's to Alex's point, there's like a melding that needs to happen between the two sides of the industry. Our side has been traditional but very educational, focused and not necessarily like hyping the business. We want people to be excited about being in the business, but we also want people to be thoughtful, to come in it with an understanding that it is work, that it's not just about passive income, that it's not just about buying real estate and becoming rich, that it really is about. You're not only facilitating your dreams as an entrepreneur, but you're facilitating families and other people that travel, their dreams of their vacation and their memory. So it's a really big responsibility to put yourself into.

Speaker 4: 18:32

Yeah, yeah, I would say definitely sparked a lot of energy. It was definitely knows how to put on a high energy conference. But I would say I did come back with just pages of notes that took back in and took action on. A lot of. It is going to be more along that guest experience and optimizing your listing primarily. So that's the notes that I jotted down and back in and took action on. But I will say there is part like my wife went with me and the more we go to these things she's like nobody ever talks about cleaners and hiring cleaners. I don't know if I talk about that there, but that's 50% of what they saw most and one of the hardest aspects of it and there's not a lot of discussion around.

Speaker 1: 19:19

And I think that's what we've seen as definitely a core difference between the conferences of the army, and some of those conferences are more operationally focused. They have everything. There's guest experience, marketing, revenue, software, all of it but definitely the back of the house, operations of maintenance, housekeeping, hiring, hr, all those things. I think you and your wife would enjoy checking it out and, conversely, I'd love for us to go to one of the STR wealth conferences at some point. I'm hoping that's on our radar, maybe in 2023 for Annie and I to check out. It's good to see both sides.

Speaker 4: 19:54

No one's right or wrong, but it's just different information and experience there and I would say just conferences in general, just a great place to network and check with other people. We made some good friends out of Tennessee that every time we're traveling to Florida or whatever we stop and they're actually from Tennessee stop, meet them. And that's actually how we ended up with the Kalo's team job in Florida that's with his brother, and they were having a play. So you just never know. The connections are almost always worth taking to any of those events anyway, definitely getting some good action items out of it as well, yeah absolutely so.

Speaker 1: 20:33

what are your plans for the future? Do you want to continue to grow the portfolio for the management side or for more that you would purchase, or what is that like?

Speaker 4: 20:44

So we literally just had our annual offsite on Monday and it's something that we've been talking about. So where we want to go is we want to have 30 properties that we manage. We want those to be more premium properties. We found that it's just as tough to manage a call it $30,000 property Some property that brings in $30,000 in revenue versus $150,000 in revenue. So we just want to be a little more strategic about the properties that we bring on. We have 30 that do. Six figures or more is what we want to do. We've had really good experiences with. We have a couple of those in our portfolio right now and it's been great managing those. It's been great managing the other ones too, but the margin starts to get a little thin when you're making $30,000 or $40,000 on a property Obviously gross.

Speaker 1: 21:42

Right, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. So yesterday they've got almost 400 condos and they're new coming into Casa Go and they said we want to get nicer condos and then let go of some of the ones that we've held on, but they're just not the best inventory and I think whether you're that large or you're more boutique, you have to get to a point of you've got to keep that revenue coming in, but then also looking at where your sweet spot is and what makes sense for what you want to be known for as your own brand and your business, so, it's good to be niche, I think. I think you're going in the right direction.

Speaker 4: 22:17

Or where we operate. These are smaller towns so we don't have I feel like we're laying over. In Gellinburg, yeah, you can get cleaners relatively easy. I'm sure it's just a hard industry in general to get, but it's not like we just have this huge hiring pool that we can hold on. So it's like almost every time. Every property we have on it just makes it that much more challenging to be able to cover all the properties that we are managing. Just from an operations standpoint, the revenue obviously is great, but it's almost harder to service additional properties. So if we are going to service them, let's make sure they're there at once.

Speaker 1: 22:54

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5: 22:55

Are you in your area and I have to say this just because I think about it every time you post something. I went to Chicago for the spring verma year what two years, what? I guess it was a year ago and flew in over the I guess it's like Michigan, right, that's Chicago, and my husband and I were just marveled about how beautiful it was. It was very like Caribbean. We posted a lot of pictures that are like, if you just at the right angle, you wouldn't know that you were in Michigan and I was just like really it was thoughtful the way you did that. I thought that was brilliant because it was like, oh my gosh, I got to go there and it was like, wait a minute, it's Michigan. But just off that, because you were talking about where you are with your properties. What have you seen and what do you foresee in your area in terms of regulation? Are you involved in some of the regulatory conversations within the market? Is it something that you're not seeing much of right now? What's going on for you guys?

Speaker 4: 23:41

I'm not involved in the conversations, but what we are seeing is there's a lot of places that currently don't have any restrictions, but they're in the process of creating restrictions. There are some cities that have put a cap on it and they've allowed whatever and so already grandfathered in to continue operating and they'll let the, when you sell the place, that the rental permit will go with properties. Oh, nice. There's a lot of zones. I just called on one the other day that I'm not super familiar with, so just wanted to see what the regulations were. Yeah, they're like, hey, we don't have any, but we're in the process of making it. They've made it sound like we're going to put in a rental permit process and you're going to have to get one. It's not like they were saying no, but there are a lot of places, I think up in the Traverse City area, that are just banning it as well.

Speaker 1: 24:29

Yeah, we're definitely seeing that in a lot of areas too. I know in Folly Beach, South Carolina, just south of where I'm at, they've got they put the rental permits in place and it's capped at a pretty small amount for the number of properties that are actually on the island. It's interesting. It's an interesting way to manage it, but I think for a lot of these communities they don't know that there are other ways. Annie, like you said on one of our podcasts recently, some of these decisions are just made without the right understanding and without the right people at the table to help them understand that there are better ways to do this and there's better ways to keep better guests in communities and really make sure that we are being good stewards of the area and bringing safe guests. It's sad to see that happen, yeah.

Speaker 4: 25:14

Yeah, Right now it's pretty much, hey, either they're not allowed, they're capped, or they're in the process of developing it. One of the things that we've seen where, hey, it's not allowed people buy properties in there. They're like, hey, there's no restrictions, one of the big risks there. They come out and say, hey, we've never had any legal laws around it. But now it's like, hey, this is the rule and it's not allowed, so anybody that was operating in that township is no longer allowed to do it. So we've had a couple of those where they've just said, hey, we never said it was okay, we never said it wasn't allowed or anything like that. But now the stance is it's no longer allowed, so we're not allowed to shut it down, so we do operate a couple of those. So that is always a risk that people should keep an eye on.

Speaker 1: 26:03

For sure. Yeah, it's definitely a big conversation. I don't know if it is at the STR wealth conferences, but it's definitely a big conversation at VRMA and some of the other ones we attend. So if that becomes something that becomes more of an issue in the area, is that you're in. That's another good reason to check it out.

Speaker 5: 26:22

So, tony, we like to ask people and you're coming from the business from a different perspective a smaller operator still growing. What do you think is the biggest outside of, say, regulations? What is the biggest thing that's not being focused on or talked about within the business?

Speaker 4: 26:43

The biggest thing. I always again, I'm a little more conservative and timid I would say safety is a big one. I think you guys just had Justin.

Speaker 1: 26:52

Yeah, yeah, board yeah.

Speaker 4: 26:54

So my wife loves listening to all his podcasts and he always gets some good stuff. But again, it's that guest experience and a lot of that starts with the safety. Safety first. So I would say some of those are probably the things that just don't get talked about enough. And then I think there's a lot just the way you interact with guests. I don't know if there's a lot of talk about that, but there's a lot of people that I see that just feel like they shouldn't really be hosts.

Speaker 1: 27:23

Yeah, yeah yeah, not hospitality based, I think.

Speaker 4: 27:27

I just posted on LinkedIn the other day, where there's like literally five signs around the stove.

Speaker 1: 27:32

Yep, yeah, don't do this, don't do that, don't get up like you're talking to that.

Speaker 2: 27:36

I was like don't be a host, Nobody rules, just got to the stove.

Speaker 4: 27:40

There was literally 15 or 20 more throughout. So, yeah, it feels so awful. There's hospitality in general, there's a business part, but it's like, at the end of the day, you're in the hospitality business and you really got to treat the guests well. They're spending their hard earned money to come stay at your properties. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 27:57

I think that's a really good point and I agree with you on that, because I actually don't. I agree that I don't think that there is enough of just general conversation related to what hospitality truly means and looking at it from the lens of Ritz Carlton or Disney or these companies that have really created that incredible experience of how do we adopt that level of care and empathy for our guests and our owners too. But that's a really good point. I'm glad that you bring that up. We haven't had anybody specifically mentioned that, but I have certainly seen the same thing on the other side of some people who are like why are you even in this Like? You obviously don't even like it. Here's another crazy story. So I was just down in the panhandle a few weeks ago and actually before I came to see you any that day, ryan Dayman, I walked in on a company and they've been in business for I think 35 years and the lady literally said are you here to buy our business? We said no and she said she was like I wish she was. She's like I just, I, just I hate this, I hate what I do, and we literally looked at each other and she's worked there for all 35 years. Wow, maybe it was a bad day but, like she admittedly said, this is what it was, not her cup of tea of it. I'm a bit of a Senate industry and it just made me sad to think that it's amazing. You're still in business. You still have guests if you really don't like what you do.

Speaker 3: 29:14

But you don't like what you do.

Speaker 1: 29:16

You really should go find something else to do, because that's not good for anybody's mental health. But yeah, it's a tough business though, you know, and I think it's taxing, and you have to be able to find the right people to help you, the right processes and the right technology. Those are all vital components of being able to survive in.

Speaker 4: 29:32

Yeah, what's a great point? I would say that's the other part. I think you mentioned it a little bit earlier too, but the passive. This is as far from passive as yeah exactly yeah. We're a small team and again manage 21, 22 properties, something like that. But you're, it's a 24, 7 gig. Never know when the guest is going to have a question, when they're going to need something fixed, need something dropped off, or whatever. You're literally on call 24, 7. You ready to take those calls?

Speaker 1: 30:06

Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. That's good to hear you say that too, because I think that's mostly the misconception, because there are a lot of people that say just that it is the glitz and glamour and it's just the passive income and the Vegas parties and everything else. And I clearly we all know that's not the case.

Speaker 4: 30:24

But it always comes at the worst time, like I literally just hang up where operations call at 930, if we were talking Literally, it seems. Every time my mom comes to sound something like big happen properties in. So it almost always happens at some time. But you're at a family event. You got to say that, yeah, exactly yeah, universe is trying to make sure you're in it, to win it On your toes. Yeah, on your toes.

Speaker 1: 30:51

Tony, thank you so much for coming on with us today. It's been a pleasure to get to catch up a little bit more besides the conversations that we've initially had offline, but we're excited to continue to watch your success and see where you and your wife and your business partners take the business. And in the meantime, though, if any of our audience wants to get in touch with you, what's a good way for them to reach out?

Speaker 4: 31:11

Yeah, the best place to reach me really is LinkedIn. Tony Stan got out on LinkedIn and then you can just send me a message or request to connect there and be happy to talk If you have any questions, especially around Michigan.

Speaker 1: 31:25

Yeah, absolutely, we will include that in the show notes. If anyone needs to get or wants to get in touch with Annie and I, you can go to alexandanniponcastcom. And until next time, thank you everyone for tuning in.