The Journey is the Destination, with Luca Zambello, CEO of Jurny

Welcome to Alex and Annie, the Real Women of Vacation Rentals. I'm Alex. And I'm Annie. And we are joined today by Luca Zambello, who is the CEO of Jurny. Well, Luca, welcome to the show.

Yeah, thank you for having me.

We're so excited to have you here. We saw you guys had a great presence at VRMArRecently, and we learned more about your product. And I think that what you guys are doing is nothing short of just amazing. I mean, you've got so much embedded in the in the tool. There's a lot that we could talk about here. But I think for those of you people that don't know you, you and Jurny, why don't you tell us a little bit about who you are and your background and kind of the genesis of of journey?

Yeah, 100%? Well, I can tell you kind of like why I started journey. Where that started. Well, I'm originally from Italy. And I moved here about , 14 years ago. And a couple years after I moved here, I kind of stumbled into the industry. So was like early age of Airbnb, where wasn't not yet, a thing. And I realized that most of the short term rentals done for villas in especially here in LA, there was a lot of people doing Villa rentals, like even for productions and short term rentals. It was done through broker, so word of mouth. So I said, like, Wait, nobody's like promoting anything online. So I literally launched a landing page that was saying, Hey, we can find luxury villas for you if you need them for short term rental. And that landing page with $1.2 million in revenue on year one. So So that's, that's, that's what got me hooked into the industry. There was a sharp leap business because like I said, like 14-15 months after I launched it, like, it really started becoming a thing. So homeowners started listing directly on, on, on Airbnb, uxury Retreat, I don't know if you remember the company was with a company, it was really coming One Fine Stay and Luxury Rtreats came to the market and start start competing against the luxury villa market. And so I pivoted the company to a management company, realized that the only way moving forward was, was managing properties full time and basically been a min property manager since before I before journey, I scaled the management competencies, 300 units. So So I think what's very important is that I've been a property manager for for so long, and I've experienced all the pain points of property managers, we have to go through from small scale to large scale. And our biggest preparation back then was that kind of still still was until not not long time ago, is the fragmentation of technology, and how technology doesn't really work and interconnect with one another. So each piece, kind of behave as a as own system. And, and, and when you want to have something better, that is very efficient and scalable, you want to have all these different pieces to talk to one matter and operate as a single system. And that didn't happen and didn't exist. And we found ourselves alongside with other, a lot of other management company, the time Stay Alfred and Lyric and so and so like investing a lot of money into this interconnectivity. And so that's where really I thought of start building kind of like, I want to say a interconnectivity platform to try to have all these different pieces of technology, talk to one another for our management company, but then realize that this we weren't fixing a major industry problem. And that's how we decided to sit down lunch Jurny. I don't want to go into much details, but I know you guys got here. Yes. That's,

that's definitely a great preview of all of it. But in between that, that fast forward, there was a lot of steps right, from the beginning to the end, but it's one of the things that we've talked about in the past and I've talked with other team members with with Jurny is that I think there's such a difference between the software that's out there now that was built by operators versus software that was not built by operators and not necessarily that your development team needs to have property management backgrounds. But you know, you as a leader, leading that team and knowing exactly what the pain points were. I think that's, that really points to where the strength in journeys offerings lie.

Yeah, 100% Because I think the problem is when you just develop a software and you have never been an operator, you don't realize a lot of the nuances that goes into the business. and sometimes even if you ask the property manager, they, they know what they tell you what the pain points but they really don't know how to how to fix them. So you have to really like you will need to be sitting down with a lot of them and spent 1000s of hours to get the same same level of nuance. Yeah, I couldn't agree more.

Yeah. So sometimes, you know, sorry.

When you started, what was the what was the like, initial part of the platform that you started? Was it just the property management system itself? Or was there I've talked to a lot of people through the years and my new having been in property management previous. The one thing that always kind of was lacking, it was the accounting piece of the software that either had a really good accounting piece, but the rest of it just didn't quite jive. So did you start from one angle to move into it and develop it from there?

Yeah, I think our number one issue first was the first piece of technology that we built with a guest mobile. And connected to an access control system, we were really, I think, probably some of the first pioneers through to really push for remote access with codes, it updates each time, a guest makes a reservation automatically. We just wanted to, once you start start, like scaling into the hundreds of units, and with the idea of getting to the 1000s of units, you realize there's more processes that are made by by people, number one can cause a lot of mistakes, too. They're not scalable, right. So you tried to automate a lot of these pieces. And then one of the first ones that we tried to automate, what was that alongside would, like you said, accounting was a very important, very important piece for us. But you cannot can't do that. You just have to invest the resources. Even if if you're not working with the best PMS, you can build something on top of it for for that you just have to invest that resources. But that's, that's what's not right, in my opinion in the industry that you have to develop on top of whatever already exist. And that that was the part that we were trying to fix. Fix with Jurny, but yes, that's, that's how we started access control system gets mobile app, where the first two pieces of technology that we have built, and we were trying to build everything on top of PMS. And in the journey of doing this, we actually changed 5 PMS's. Wow. And if you look, and if you talk to any big PM, they have done all the same things, they've because you're trying to find that PMS, that that matches what your needs are, and, and allows for that level of customization. But this just doesn't exist. And that's the reason why you keep chaning, you cant find it, right?. And the reason is, is because it's not that PMS are are there are bad companies, it's just like the way that they are taxed. They don't allow for this type of interconnectivity today you will need. So their their concept is to create a marketplace. And because of that, it comes with a lot of limitations on what you can do with it. And so you have really two concept, the only one that does everything internally. And that means that they don't do it well. And they just do kind of like the middle that need to do for each thing. Or you are the ones that they say, Hey, we have a marketplace for every tools. But the reality is when you have to integrate with sometimes 30, 50 or 100 different solutions for for a specific vertical. So let's say 30 pricing tools, right? And five guest verification systems like can you do that for each category access control system, another five or 10. Like, that means that you cannot go in depth with any of these integrations. And there also means the combination of tech stack that our property manager can have on top of your permanent PMS, it's almost infinite, because every tech stack is going to be different from one another. So because of that you cannot really go in depth with these integrations. That means that you'll have to build layers on top of it yourself. And that means that you have to have specific requests for these, these pmss And that means that if you're not a large enough customers, they're not even gonna listen to you and do them for you. And even if you do listen to you, which we were large enough to be listened to. That it was never good enough for us was the scattered field glue on top of our system that it was not meant to do that. Alright, so that's that's why we were constantly unhappy until the point where realized, like, hey, this isn't the last thing we wanted to do because building a PMS is like, is not easy. It's a big challenge. There's a lot of work that goes into it. A lot of resources, it took us like 1212 months of some type of developers that I have experienced in this industry for a long time to build one. But we had to build one that allows for interconnectivity.

And you've taken a different stance than some of the other property management software's that do just what you were talking about that they are just connected to all the pricings services, all the guests verification, all the this that whatever, you've taken a different approach to it, where you have specialized services within each different categories that correct or supposedly specialized connections.

That is exactly correct. But the difference is that we choose one partner. Yeah, only. And and that approach is very much like like, let's say, a vertically integrated system. So the idea was, instead of allowing people to build their own system, which means that they have to compensate for a lot of the things that are not already built, like, like I said before, I said why we don't build one that is meant to be working together. I felt like today, when you have to go and choose a PMS, it's like you go by a car, and they tell you, Okay, when you choose a PMS, you choose the engine, and then every auto part they're like,Yeah, hire an engineer and put it

together. That's right, he'll take a Toyota bumper and a BMW hood.

And it just doesn't, wasn't really meant to be working together. Right. And then yeah, you know, your car company spends a lot of resources and many, many years in r&d to try to make sure that everything is going to be working together as a single as a single machine, right. And so really, what we're trying to do is the exact same thing is to give you like a ready to use easy to use all the previous tech stack. And you know, we were at a panel at VRMA. And one of the things that we asked to everybody on the panel was like, how many technologists solution are you utilizing today? What's your tech stack? Like? And many people said, three to form solutions, like Yeah, I think at first solution was a maximum that most people will have? Do you really need a dozen different solution to have a complete tech stack? The reason why people don't have a dozen different solution is because it's so hard to make those two or three working well together. Even imagine adding on top, right, yeah, and and that's really the story of every pm that is trying to scale their company, or even manages a handful of units, you still have the same issues. So we were like, what if we can give you something that scaling to more solution is as easy as clicking one button not having to get on the phone with anybody. And you can just ask all those 1000s solution working flawlessly together as a single system. And we realized that we cannot be the one doing it all. Because there's things like that we will never want it to do like pricing for example. It's it's a science, you need to have a company that has been focusing on that for years for and that's and that's what really we wanted to do. We said let's choose the best of the industry. We know what the best are in the industry. Let's let's split test all of them, which we did was split test every single pricing builder there wasn't a in the industry, like all the let's say the top Known seven, right and then we split test all of them and we chose the best performing one. And then we said let's only work with them. And let's go very deep. So all the functionality that you would have on their pricing tool, you now have it inside of our dashboard. So you don't have to when you're working with Jurny, you don't have to contact Wheelhouse for pricing. We use Wheelhouse you will have Wheelhouse embedded into the system and you want to turn on Wheelhouse, one click of a button you don't have to sign a contract with Wheelhouse you don't have to pay them we take care of all of that. So for you is just the switch of a button. And now you have an integration with it with a pricing tool. Same thing is for the i verification system, if you want to utilize Autohosteout ; Autohost is completely embedded into our system. So guest verification can be done through the mobile app. So you they don't have to be sent on a third party link or anything like that. So everything can be done there and then the and all the rules, different rules that you want to set up on Autohost they can all be set up on the PMF, or on the on the PMs dashboard on the journey dashboards. So, again, you don't have to use an manage a third party dashboard. You don't have to call anyone to make that integration. It's already built in. Right? And that's like that for access control system, guests mobile app, not how you can you later can, manage 3 units and you can have the same tech stack the Sonder has, overnight. Yeah, we're a very accessible price.

So you're kind of like a channel manager for technology, in some ways. I mean, that's how I'm gonna get through it in my mind. Whereas like, you know, in a PMS, the channel management component is you go and you click all the channels that you want to be on. And it's, it's kind of seamless. So you're done that, but I want to go back like, so do you have any technology background prior to property management? Or was this something that you saw this, you'd had a struggle, so you kind of developed a passion for it? And then surrounded yourself with obviously really smart developers? But what what was that thing that you felt comfortable stepping into it any previous experience?

Well, I, I, I'm not a developer, myself, but I have, you know, since I was in Italy, I was surrounded by a lot of people that was there were developers and, and software engineers. And, and so I always been familiar with the industry. And I always knew what a lot of these challenges in software developments are, if that makes sense. So I was very familiar with that. So once I decided very early on as a property management company, we started developing technology internally. So we were building a tech team, from almost day one and our CTO was was originally kind of like working as an external for a while. So he was already very familiar with an industry. And, and one, on one point, we literally sat down, like we were was me and him and, and our VP of ops, and we were like, Why don't we just start building this? Let's just do it. And we were like, it is complicated, but it's also, you know, we can do. So. Yeah, that's kind of how it happened. That's, it's

fascinating to me, because to me, like the technology piece of it is the one piece that it's like, I look at, like, you know, HTML coding, and like all this stuff that has to be done like so for the consumer facing stuff. And then you're looking at all these register reports for things that connect everything on the back end, and what all that looks like, and I look at it, and I'm like, oh, wait a minute, like, that's just way too much. So for me, it would have been really overwhelming. So I think, again, that was worth my curiosity. I was like, how did you just like, wrap your arms around this and go like, I can do this, you know, and it's

so it's so interesting, when you look at the genesis of our industry, and how fast things have sped up just in the last few years, as far as the technology is concerned that I mean, we were, we're still called a mom and pop cottage industry by a lot of people. But now you have moms and pops that are trying to figure out how to use all this stuff. And it's like, gosh, it there's no point did most property managers 10-20 years ago, sign up thinking that they were in the technology, business, but really, we are definitely a big percentage of what we do, I would say is rooted in technology and making those really good technology decisions. And conversely, if you make the bad decisions that can be, you know, complete detriment to the business.

But you made a great point. And that's where I think that's where I think the opportunity lies, like I said, one point is that I said, Are we a tech company, or we hospitality company?. And I was spending 80% of my time being a tech company, any management company that wants to adopt technology to do this? That, to me is completely unreasonable and unsustainable to do to both you mean, yeah, to do both. To be a property manager and having to spend as much time with technology, I said, The future needs to look like this. And I said, it needs to look like you have to have a tech company that takes care of 100% of technology. So that it makes it easy enough for a property manager not to be having to become an expert in technology to adopt technologies. And that's what became literally our our personal mission at Jurny is exactly to do that. I said it's unsustainable that PMS need to have CTOs in their business. Yeah, absolutely. It doesn't make any sense. But the only reason is, is because of what we set out in the beginning. They, you know, they give you a bunch of car parts and say go build your own car. Yeah. So I think the future of the industry is going to be this pre build. I think Jurny is the first, but it's not going to be the last of these pre built tech stacks. It's just like, looking at the early computers age when I love always looking at history of, for many different industry because history always repeats itself. Computers age early on was exact same thing. You can there's still people that build their own PCs, but what is it 1% On the industry. Most people like you right now carry a computer, on your phone, or on your pocket, which is your phone, you don't even know how that's built, you don't you don't even care, you just care that about its functionalities. Right? Exactly. And that is the future of the industry. In the end of the day, you're gonna choose a product based on its functionality, and it's a finished product. You don't have to plug it into anything, you don't have to develop anything on top of it, you don't have to add anything, it needs to be a finished product. Like it will be like you buying an iPhone, they're like, Okay, you have to glue a couple peices on your own.

our industry is so unique in that respect.

I don't think MacGyver is like that, but

I think it's because it's so early. That's it, you know, it, that's how every industry is, when it's very early on very early on, like, you know, Apple was one of the first companies of putting it all together, like older hardware, and OS s all together, so you don't have to do anything and, and strive to make computers mainstream, right. And, and really, it happens the same thing of, again, on every industry, then then there's a company that comes along and says, Hey, this can be done better, this can be made mainstream, that can be made accessible to everybody. And we'd like to see our stuff as that company and starting that trend. And honestly, you know, I would like to be the leader on doing this. But at the end of the day, I've really done it out of passion out of like wanting to see improvement in the industry, and genuinely wanting to help PMS out there that they were going through the same struggle that we have been through. It was so hard to develop, both and scaled, develop the technology have a tech stack that works because we were looking at a company say hey, how can we get this company to the 10s of 1000s of units. And every time we were like not scaling the company or growing very slowly, because we understood that that the technology would have not supported our growth. And we saw that happening with a lot of these companies, do they grow too quickly, without the proper technology, and then they end up failing? And we knew that that was going to happen? Again. I don't think the industry was mature enough. Back then, and I think is it's getting there. And this is an evolution of where the industry needs to go.

Yeah, absolutely. And so at one point, you were managing your own properties, but you decided to you're just going to go on to just the software side. So in that transition, I mean, what what was that, like? What did that look like from deciding not to have that that side? I mean, what happened at that point in the business?

Well, I think, once we. So as I said, we kind of stopped growing, and we decided to really develop the technology. So to allow us to scale, much bigger than than 300 units. And when we did that, we got to the point where we realized that, hey, this is fixing a massive problem for a lot of other people. What if we tried to sell it to our property management company and see what happened, right. And then when we saw that there was demand, I just found a lot more passion about doing that. I realized and I had to be honest with myself, I said, Do I want to build a property management company or I want to build a tech company? What am I more passionate about it? I'm passionate about both, but more passionate about building a technology company. I'm knowledgeable about the industry. So I wanted to be able technology company in this industry. But I said we already develop already so much. Why not make it available for everybody and try to make it our mission to fix this? This industry Issue of fragmentation. Right? Right. So that's what we did. And the transition was super smooth just from one day to another obviously it took a little bit. But as off basically beginning of this year, that's when we really completely almost completely stopped managing any of the properties that we have and just fully focus on the software and and focusing on creating a good because we developed the product first of all, internal use only. Yeah, so you have to create an interface If I mean, the last piece of the software that we that we built, I mean, obviously alongside a few different feature, but what's the sign up dashboard? Because usually you talk to any tech companies, the first piece, the dashboard. Yeah that was the last peice we built.

Oh, that's funny.

So what So did you guys, did you sell off your property management company? Or did you partner with somebody? What did you end up doing with

it? We we, we transition out a few of the properties that we were the, you know, the contracts where we're just coming to an end, some of the others, we pass it to partners, management companies, and some others, we we switch them to a product that we offer outside of technology, there's what we called, we used to call Jurney virtual now I called MOS Pro. So we kept our 24/7 customer support, we kept our pricing team, and we kept our accounting team. And for any property manager that wants these teams like we make them available. Let me support for a fee. But you know, like if you're a small PM, you don't have a 24/7 customer support, you can you can utilize ours, and it's not. Some of the customers reports that are out there. These are people that have been trained and trained to be professional agents. And so we make that available. And so some of our owners decided, hey, we can take on the management on the ground ourselves. And you guys just provide the 24/7 customer support and pricing and accounting and the software. So so we convert some of them in into that product.

Okay, and so MOS that stands for management, operating system operating system. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Which is really unique, too, because there's anybody else in the industry that has taken on that stance of we're not a PMS, we're an MLS, I think that's really quite powerful. Actually.

Have you trademarked that?

Because I want people to use it. Okay. Yeah. I'm a believer. I want the best of the industry. Listen, I want to be successful. 100% I'm not. I'm not gonna lie. But I also I believe in progress. Yeah.

Competition is healthy

I dont want to be the only one doing this. Yeah, I will come out of people to develop the same system. I want this to be the future of the industry. And and I want MOS's to take over. Typical PMS is not in a bad way. But I want an even PMS to evolve into inot MOS's. Because that's, that's where the industry should be going. That's, that's what's going to be the most beneficial solution for for PMS, in my opinion. Again, as a PM, when I was a pm, I wish the company will came out and did this.

Yeah. So you're saying that everything is actually build through journey as well. So the the remote locks all the different services, if they if somebody signs up for any of the services that you offer? That's now just added into their journey bundle? Essentially?

Correct? Yeah, we have different different bundles. But the MOS basically is it's a complete package that has all the 12 different tech stacks, like okay, access control system, guest mobile app, pricing, accounting, reporting, guests verification system, the PMS, I guess, component component of it. So basically, in the eyes, different IoT connections as well, including, like smart thermostats and all of that.

Is that is the pricing model. Is it based on unit count? Or how does that work?

Yeah, it's on a per unit. And then. So for everything, if you if you count, like just what a pricing tool or also like we include, like the cleaning mobile app like a breezeway of the situation, have access to Breezeway. So but if you would count off just the vendors by themselves, and you don't buy them on their own, they will be more expensive than the fee that we charge on a per unit. Right? I

gotcha. Yeah.

Yeah. So coming from the from myself from the channel management, the OTA side of the equation? Are you guys doing your own direct connects? Or have you white labeled a channel management provider within the platform?

Yes. So everything that we utilize, we want to make sure it's completely embedded into our system. So we do use a couple different channel managers. On top of that, we were working for direct direct connection with the major four. But then, but then everything else that you want on top of it aside of a few different players like Hopper and a few others that we're going to be eventually integrating directly with those as well. But but everything else has done through channel management, but it's a white label channel management. So you don't see them there. They're getting better into the system. And that's already included in the fee. There's no, there's no adding of fees. If you get them washed, you got 100? Everything.

Yeah. And can you can you book on Jurny also, I mean, for all the properties that are part of the program,

correct is on the mobile app for the ranking. And the reason is, because it's just so easy and direct, because if somebody saw you show up on the app, if you're utilizing all the solutions, so you have to utilize MOS, and you'll have to have a smart lock that is connected to the system. But the cool thing of everything working as a single system, that also means that if somebody is on our mobile app, they can literally Apple Pay, so double tap Apple Pay, and then immediately the reservation is active on their phone, and they can use their phone to open the door and walk right in. This is like your book within a second you can be inside of the unit. Wow. It's It's It's we're not trying to become an OTA but we're just showing one that to come out, like the capability of the technology. And for large players that they're willing to pay. Our mobile app is white label, as well to them like it can be white label.

So is your target is your target audience... Well, I guess, because of the technology is all embedded in it, you know, obviously, changing the PMS is a pretty cumbersome, you know, task for any operator of any size. So are you looking to start with people like focused on like, say that under 25 unit person to help them scale up? Or are you targeting really anybody that's interested in that? And off of that question, if you get someone like Steve Milo as an example, who is acquiring and growing at a pretty rapid clip, and what is the onboarding process look like? Isn't isn't multiple months? Is it something they can get done in a couple of weeks? Like what how does thatwork?

Yeah, it's no more than those are super quick. We mean that the only part that takes time is like for instance, like, you know, when you will have to switch. When you switch, channel manager or PMS, like from some of those channels, this switch takes time, your be off, for instance, as long as like I think, three, four weeks, Airbnb is couple of days. So it again, depends on on the channels, but from our side is a couple day process to three days max, doesn't matter how many units somebody has, like they can do most of the work themselves, especially if they do most of the work themselves. It's even quicker. Everything is pretty self explanatory. We're working really tirelessly. I don't know if you can see this, but you can't see it. But it's a sign I have, it says obsession over convenience. And that's our goal for next year to compete, completely obsessed over convenience and allow like, really streamline a lot of these processes that you have to do with with any of the system where, again, like you said, it can take weeks to do things that they're easy. So we want to make everything the least amount of clicks as possible, the least amount of steps as possible. And and that's going to be our our, I guess, obsession for next year to improve that all that aspect of the business. So it's pretty quick. But to answer the first part of your question. Our platform is meant to be for you to scale from my handful of units into the 10s of 1000s. Right and the removing the need to having to switch platform, each single step of of the growth that you are, which is how unfortunately here. It's time that the industry is going to build today. But we are targeting more people that don't have a system or have a have just are having a system in place for a simple fact that it's easier for them to make a switch. But we have some large property managers are making switchess as well. We're just not targeting them yet. Just want to first show how small small operators now are maybe outgrowing some of the larger operators because they have a tech stack that scaling with them.

Or not who is your but what is your largest group? Like how many units and are they multiple markets?

Yeah, we have a they're about like 250 units and but they have they're actually a long term management company that has 1000s of units under management, but they're looking to bring a lot of this in and they have 1000 of corporate as well, and they're looking to bring a lot more into the short term. So still 50 now but and maybe into the 1000s very, very soon. But But yeah, we have a lot of medium players, like I say, like, between five units to 50 units, it's the majority of our customers.

Yeah. Well, that's kind of the sweet spot for the industry that at this point is that's where the that's where the growth is, is all under that 50 unit mark. So, so you're in the right place.

I'm on your website. I'm just I'm curious diving into this a little bit more. So the the most popular plan the MOS, what's the difference between that versus MLS pro versus enterprise? Is it just more of the services or some of them that you just you don't have to elect to use? Like, if you didn't want to use the digital locks? Or how does that work?

Yeah, the Pro.The Pro basically adds the services that we talked about before, which is outside of the technology, like the 24/7, customer support or virtual front desk, in the the accounting team and the pricing team. Okay, so if you don't only get that software, but you get a team that basically runs the software for you, right. And they enterprise, it just means that you can customize if your apps like above a certain kind of size as a client, you can customize. Basically, you can pick and choose whatever products you want. And we'll customize offer to you. Yeah, that's really what it means. And then we have the OS version, which is basically just just the just our software without third parties, right? Like it means just like our guests mobile app, the PMs, the channel manager. We just did direct integration. So not third party channel manager and access control system. Gotcha.

Do you write? Do you see a scenario? One of the things that we've Alex and I' have talked to a lot of people over the last year, there's just a lot of consolidation within the verticals of technology, PMS, channel management. I just went through that with Lexicon. And do you see that as an opportunity for you guys to maybe purchase someone to make them holy part of Jurny? Or do you think that the way your technology is built that partnering with a select person by category is the best route to take or you see yourself going maybe into a hybrid model,

I think it's already is an hybrid because where, for instance, on my access control system, we couldn't find the access control system and the PMS or the guests mobile app, those those three solutions are three things that we couldn't find the partners that that could have done what we needed. So we were forced to build our own, right? Like, I don't want it to get there. And so that's, that's the three things that we chose to build our own. And we believe they are the best in the industry. And that is the reason why we build them. But our solution I have no interest in in getting into that business. And I honestly I'm I'm completely okay, to have a mutual beneficial partnership, to having a third party company that is exclusively working with you, it comes at a benefits to them, because they know think about this, like if they are working with a PMS that works with all their competitors, right? Because it doesn't make any sense. They know they're and and the reality is you cannot use a guest verification system or a pricing tool efficiently if you don't have a PMS partner, right. So we then become automatically their best partner, and they become the best partner for us. So I like that mutual beneficial. relationship. So as long as partners are evolving with the idea and the concept, the interconnectivity is going to be a big deal in the future. That's the most important thing for me. And all the partners that are partnered with us are to stand up very well.

Yeah, that's a really, really smart business model. Right. I agree. Yeah, makes a lot of sense. What a sense. Well, so Luca, one of the things we like to ask our guests to is what what would you say what's something that's not being talked about in the vacation rental, short term rental industry right now that should be talked about or talked about more?

Well, I am biased on this software. We wouldn't expect Yeah, I mean, I just think like, it's we sometimes we, it's just easy to do things the way they've been done. Yeah. Like yeah, and not making changes. And I do feel like from the software side. I don't want to say I don't want to say terms laziness, because it's maybe not the right term. But, but I say that because of, for lack of better terms. Innovationa but to purely bring more value to to PMS like I think generally speaking from a PMS standpoint there is a big level of frustration from a lot of PMS. But it became the industry standard so nobody cared about it. Right? Yeah. So everybody's just kind of like got to a level of our innovation. Yeah, there is a little bit innovation happening. But we got to this level and if you can't find that across the board, and you have a lot of PMS's that have stopped caring about this for a long time, they've been around forever and they never care. Yeah. And I don't want to you know, I don't want to say names but I've been their customer. I know exactly what it is just, they're like that's the way it is and we liked it the standard way Yeah. Because that means there is less work for us more money for us. They ultimately don't really think about that the property managers and unfortunately, I think this is outside of software. Unfortunately, I think we're across the industry even you look at from an OTA standpoint, that pm always comes last. And and that there is always put at the at like you have you have a guest doing damage to your units. You cannot almost claim that damage because because you know that the OTA is going to blame you or not the guest