The OG’s of the Panhandle: Lino Maldonado, Jim Olin, Paul Wohlford, and Steve Caron

Alex Husner  0:02  
Welcome to Alex & Annie the relevant of vacation rentals. I'm Alex. And I'm Annie. And we are joined today by a whole group of incredible men that have been part of this industry for a very long time. We are calling them and they are the OGS of the Panhandle. And we're gonna go around and let everybody introduce themselves. But Jim, do you want to start first? You're in the second tile there.

Jim Olin  1:00  
I got moved up. I'm Jim Olin. I'm the oldest one of this group by far. Definitely Lord. Yeah, thanks a lot. Paul. moved to the Panhandle. I'm a native Floridian says my wife kids, all the kids were born in Florida moved to the Panhandle in 89. And then started with Abbott resorts in 92 and helped grow that one we were going to go public, and then resortquest bought us instead. And I ended up running resortquest oath as chief operating officer then as president and CEO, sold that off the Gaylord in end of oh two, I did not have a non compete. So within six months, I had started up Sterling resorts with several partners, including one that's on this call Mr. Caron, who was my partner at the time was Sterling. And then we sold that in oh eight, Steve was away. And since then, and even before we sold it I was I've been doing m&a work in the industry since day one. I mean, it happened we were buying company. So we my son and I on CDG advisors and we do m&a work now exclusively. So that's kind of it I am on this claim to fame hire two out of the three people that are on this call the only one I didn't hire. I wouldn't. He's just not good.

Paul Wohlford  2:25  
I've turned him down twice.

Jim Olin  2:27  
You didn't you actually did turn me down. I know all these guys wait too well.

Annie Holcombe  2:32  
So with that, I guess maybe we go down to Steve, since you were automatically brought into this conversation.

Steve Caron  2:38  
So I also moved to the I'm a Floridian but did a stint flying airplanes for the Air Force in Japan and moved from Japan to the Emerald Coast in 89, as well and kept on flying and doing stuff for a few more years. I met Jim he was he couldn't print was really the big deal. He just couldn't print. I came and interviewed with him. He said, Look, you know, you're I need my network fix, you're probably going to have it fixed in six months. And and then I probably won't need you anymore. But you know, we'd love to have you that was that was the the interview basically. And I reminded him that he was entering into the black hole of technology was never coming out. And sure enough, that's what happened. So Jim and I did the Abbott and the resortquest story together. We did take off the had the greatest summer ever took time off as resortquest continued to pay us our full salaries, which was phenomenal. Yes. And then we started a company and they continue to pay us our full salaries, which was a great experience. And we sold that as Jim said in 2008. I went off and did a series of startups in VR gateway and sold that to that that became part of what was vacation ruse did some international wholesale for a while, made my Escape to get out as Jim has always said before, this is a cult so you get out but you always get pulled back in as one of the partners that I trip, and then that that was really there to take it to the next step as the the founders wanted to exit. And that exit happened in 2019 with inhabit and then I ran that for another couple years. And then last year I moved into the managing director of vacation habits so I'm actively still working in the game. In a in the Roll Up P world.

Alex Husner  4:24  
Nice.

Annie Holcombe  4:25  
What about you Leno?

Lino Maldonado  4:26  
Yeah, so Leto Maldonado. Actually Jim brought me into this business in 1996 actually started me Fourth of July weekend on the beach in 1996. I'm still a little pissed about that made up title made up roll. I was Guest Services Coordinator which meant that I was responsible for any house that was that grossed greater than 75,000 bucks and I had to go door to door every week. and meet all the guests and facilitate any need that they had housekeeping maintenance, where to go for dinner, and the like. And, you know, initially it was, it was a role that was very, you know, sort of loose, I didn't really understand how it fit into the bigger world. But I think as I reflect back, it was the role that taught me the most about the customer base, really true sense of hospitality and how to meet, you know, ever changing expectations of very high end and demanding guests. So a really good learning curve there, and then went through the whole abit resorts, you know, roll up to resortquest, the resortquest sail to Gaylord and then I came back with a group in 2007, June of oh seven, we bought resortquest, back from Gaylord and really got back down to the basics with the business, we eliminated the entire corporate structure. And literally, our C suite was five people. And we moved those five people into our Call Center in Fort Walton Beach, because we wanted to have the people making the decisions as close to the business as we possibly could get them. And I wanted to be in the call center because I wanted to hear the phone's ringing or not. And if not, why not and be able to move very quickly. On on the business, probably what what taught me that the centralization of the business is really more of a problem than an opportunity. And I think you're you're seeing that play out in real time today with with some other groups.

Steve Caron  6:28  
You're welcome for that call center, by the way.

Jim Olin  6:30  
Yeah, it's nice to go to Walmart.

Annie Holcombe  6:35  
So one of these things doesn't belong. Yeah.

Paul Wohlford  6:41  
I'm not a native Floridian. So I'm from Tennessee, originally, Paul Woolford. But I got my start in the hotel business, I moved around the country with high hotels, and eventually Renaissance hotels, and then, in 1999, made the brilliant decision to go into the vacation rental space, leaving one owner of a great hotel where all the units match and our lot of capital investment to go to 1500 owners at Sandestin. where I started, I started last century, as well. But more recently in the last century than my counterparts. I started in December of 99 at San destin and spent several years there and then moved east over to Panama City Beach, where I joined a company called resort collection and grew that and worked here and part of what we did several years ago, which somebody knows got in the call center business. And three years ago, we sold our vacation rental contracts. And I continued on in the call center world growing and expanding our call center world where we are today. And that's what I do today. And I've known these guys and learn from these guys for years. And I can tell you when I started as Sandestin my drive to work from where I lived was four traffic lights. And today it's 27. So it is just grown enormously in Northwest Florida and changed and that's where I cut my teeth. And that's where I sit today.

Steve Caron  8:06  
I remember when we built the Abbot, also the Abbott central office, which back then was in the middle of nowhere Invesco pre bridge. Also remember after Hurricane Opal in 95, when we're standing there with no power bill Abbott handed one of my texts and handed Andy 100 bucks we drove Oh, and he drove over to one of the power guys and said, Here's 100 bucks, can you turn our pole Jack's on, they flipped our jacks and the call center was back live faster than anybody else. That was the kind of influence that they had back then it was able we were able to make things happen in the marketplace. And it was pretty great. And there were three traffic lights and destiny.

Paul Wohlford  8:40  
And if we all knew what we know today, we'd all own property on 30 day.

Annie Holcombe  8:47  
Amen to that.

Paul Wohlford  8:48  
Yeah, we'd be counting our money. Whenever

Jim Olin  8:51  
I hang out with any of you guys at any included, it always makes me jealous that I don't live down in the Panhandle because we always joke on the show that there's just such great minds that grew up in that area of Florida and so much of the technology and development and guest services, all sides of the business came from a lot of the bricks that you guys were laying back then whether you knew it or not the amazing to look back on it. And Steve, I remember when you came on our show about two years ago, you told us about the as for hundreds and it was basically like duct tape. Scotch, how much you know has changed since then.

Steve Caron  9:28  
We have the net. We had the beach network in 9596 97. We had that entire beach area in the network when people didn't even hardly use computers. And we we had already built a virtual environment across all of the areas. I do recall one of our I was with Joanne saucy out on 30 A and we were turning up one of the locations and one of the managers said well what do we do if the computer doesn't work? And she's like, You take their money and you give them a key They were Oh, okay.

Lino Maldonado  10:03  
You know, Joanne should probably be on this call. He was our Director of Operations with Abbott and we brought her on in a consulting role when we took over resortquest And oh, seven and, and now she's with us with Scenic stays our little rental real estate business. That's great panhandle. So yeah, she's still active and is honoree as ever. But But probably the most knowledgeable of anybody on this call.

Jim Olin  10:28  
She's part

Steve Caron  10:29  
of the gym. I

Jim Olin  10:29  
know. So oh my gosh, board meetings and board meetings, she would just chew me and spit me out. And she looked for me. Favorite Comment? Was that stupid? Like you, thank you.

Lino Maldonado  10:47  
So well. That's exactly right. Give me the actual news that you don't want to hear but need, and then, you know, make the appropriate decisions. Yeah, when I think about the Panhandle here, and all the folks and influences and talent we've had, I think there's something very unique about this space. You know, Paul and I have actually been competitors. And Steve and you guys were with Sterling resorts, competitors, we have a phrase that I like to use coopetition is that even though we're in the same business competing for employees and units, and everything else that goes along with it, we work together as a group for the betterment of the industry, in our markets and in others. And it's amazing as you traveled all these different government affairs, you know, it's the same small group that attends and tries to push things forward. That it was 25 years ago.

Steve Caron  11:37  
Right? Yeah. Seems to be one of our customers these days. So we still work with you, they're gonna work with each other compete against each other, you know, or, or work for one of them, right? It just seems like you always kind of there's the same people you move around in this industry. And you know, the coopetition ideas, really the right answer is because there's so much opportunity, and it's, it's really about lifting, lifting the tide for everybody in this process. And

Paul Wohlford  12:04  
that's really kind of where aatma the on site property management. Really where it was birthed is really frustrating that we all thought we had a secret that nobody else did. And we wouldn't share those secrets. And it was crazy to me that we didn't try to help each other get better, and try to make the industry better. And and we did that and we continue to do it. But it's we're not rocket science. We don't have the answer to get to the moon, we have the answer to try to take care of people and make their vacation special and make their trip special. And that's what we all care about.

Jim Olin  12:37  
But back in the day, you know, when we're talking the early and mid 90s. You know, the only thing out here in the Panhandle was condominiums and restaurants and a few traffic lights. It was the drive destination for this the southeast. We all just work together. We didn't have technology back then. And we wanted to know how we were doing we call upon our competitors and say, honestly, are you ahead or behind you? And that's how we did our as of hey, Neal Peterson Are you ahead or behind? And we call the restaurants would call say hey, does it look like it's gonna be good weekend? That's how we all had it back did Steve set up the I don't know what you call VPN or whatever, when he did all that it was like, wow, we can we can know what's going on 38 without driving down there and look at the tape sheets. I mean, we were like whoa, so like the whole world. It is unbelievable. And that was kind of the beginning of the downfall of resortquest because resortquest couldn't tie all the different companies together to make the street happy and give guidance we could within Abbott but are as 400 with the native RPG and all that kind of garbage did it just for us. And so that's what really caused most of the problems that resortquest In the beginning was they they rolled up something they couldn't report it

Steve Caron  13:57  
yeah the challenge of technology in the 90s when that when that came about there were there was a lot of baling wire and duct tape we you know, David Levine announced to the street in third quarter late third or one year we're going to have all of his workers on a single website and I remember everybody on the technology side saying really wasn't gonna happen nonstop literally in route through Christmas to pull off a miracle to get that view but it there was a lot of magic going on with seven different types of operating systems with you know 25 different property management companies pulling data and you know, it was It wasn't pretty but it was pretty amazing for the time today kind of table stakes for getting the business a business up and running and you know, multi multi location operations are a pretty pretty much a given in the in the technology base. But what we were doing was blazing new ground back Yeah,

Lino Maldonado  14:55  
blessing you know, to me there's a blessing and a curse and I'm in the technology business now with Be home 24/7 And it was a blessing and a curse with technology back then, you know, we didn't have good technology and you know, people crack up about the as 400 and how long we were on it and, and the like, but it was a very stable and accurate system that never never crashed, we literally did not have, you know, a crash. And today, there's still problems with technology. And to me, it's it's either you're leaning too much on technology to deliver a great experience or you're not using enough technology. And then within those technologies, the problem is is integrations where you got a lot of point solutions to deliver certain pieces to the business. But there's there's, you know, that centralized technology stack can get very complicated and your business, you think you're getting more effective and efficient. But you're actually putting every department in its own silo that then creates efficiency problems on its own. You know, so is technology much better today than it was or is there just newer, shiny objects for US operations people to chase?

Paul Wohlford  16:05  
Well, and lino and I've talked about that, you know, just last month or a couple of months ago, we get so focused on technology, we lose our focus on the hospitality side, sometimes we do. And at the end of the day, we all try and remember that today is the first day of somebody's vacation, and they saved their money. And they've focused on it, and they plan for it. And they're here, on the pool deck or at the beach to spend some money. And if we're so worried about technology, we got to remember to take care of those guests. And that gets lost sometimes when we get So technology focused

Annie Holcombe  16:38  
like for Jim, since you've been you've been around for longer than anybody. Anybody on this call? Now, just just in the market, I was thinking about, again, to the technology point I was thinking about, I remember when we used to have to Paul, you remember for Panama City Beach, we reported every week to the Hawes Institute over West Florida. And now we have key data like that when we got key data in the market that was like a whole like like this, the clouds parted this rainbows came out. But for you, Jim, what do you think has been the single biggest piece of technology that's been added to the business that has been, I'd say, like one most beneficial and one maybe most problematic?

Jim Olin  17:17  
I didn't think I'd be alive to see today you can dynamic price houses, I always thought we'd get to a point with the condos, with the two bedroom and the three bedroom in some manner or fashion to do dynamic. I didn't quite think we'd ever get there on the houses in my lifetime. And I think what we've seen, which is the two edged sword of having private equity sniffing in our, in our myths, is that they start bringing in the boat floats higher when you start bringing in some people who say okay, it is not going to be as easy as the airport airline industry. But if we do this and this, so I think that's the bright spot. I've seen the negative and it isn't one technology. The negative is i think and lino you said it, I think or Paul, yeah, we're taking our eyes off the ball. We're so worried about making another nickel that we're still doing single ply toilet paper in the units or you've got 3030 thread count and be able to look through the sheet and we got to keep our eye on that ball. Okay, don't tell me you're spending $10 million just because the street wants to hear you're spending 10 million or 20 million on on technology when when they walk in the unit they'll never come back because I don't want to go there but it's kind of gross it's just I was

Steve Caron  18:38  
telling a story in an all hands meeting to the to my vacation division the other day and I was I was telling a story about remember how you the annoying way you used to make us answer the phone and Abbott Thank you for calling Eric resorts your vacation is our our business how can I help but in their their their the subtle message to everybody was your vacation is our business and in the world I'm in today we're servicing vacation rental businesses, short term rental businesses, I the way I related to them as you are vacate your vacation business is our business. And you got to know what business you're in, you're in the business. We're in the business of, of helping guests and travellers have a great vacation. You know, I'm in the day of helping property managers make their owners a lot of money and have a great experience with their owners so they can gain and retain more owners. They can't do that without having great businesses with their guests. We have to know the business we're in and I think what do we lose sight of that? Technology can enable it and if you apply the right technology and the sufficient technology, but you have to have a focus on how does this business work? Owners matter? Guests matter? And if we lose sight of those two pieces, that technology is the part that enables it, it's not the business and

Jim Olin  19:55  
that's such a good point. It's such a good point. And I feel like you know that's just something that I mean to me anchored back to why we're doing any of the things or employing any of the software that we bring onto our businesses. We're in the businesses, the business of relationships and of memories, and at the end of the day, and then things that can make the business easier for us. That's great. But what we have seen in the more recent years is, you know, these more boutique style, smaller rental companies that they're doing hospitality, memory, making exceptionally well, and doing it to a level that, you know, a huge company like Sterling or resortquest, like that just would have been very hard to do at that level of scale. But just kind of on that topic would like to get anybody's thoughts on how do you take that curated experience and how can companies be able to scale that to create those memories and really impactful stays looking for

one thing in and then I'll, I don't want to dominate what Leno said because early on because it was we threw him in Joanne was the one that came up with that I wish I could take credit. But when I went to Joanne and said I met this guy, no brainer. We got to hire him. She's the one that said this new phenomenon called detached houses, which are not we're not huge at the time. They were growing and 75 grand in the mid 90s. With pretty good details. What are they doing now and Lino 304? Well, we wanted more of them, lino had to meet every owner, every time they were in town, he climbed underneath the buildings, because they're all on stilts, and cleaned up the rubbish that gets caught under there before the guests arrived, he talked to the guests. And guess what, we didn't lose one unit. That's a good example. And I'm not saying but those boutique places they can do that. Yeah. And I'm not saying get to do it at every place. But there's some basic things you can do when a unit, every unit to make it hospitable. Okay, like I named to, you know, nice sheets and toilet paper,

Paul Wohlford  21:51  
the boutique guys can focus on meeting guests at the unit is a fabulous thing to do takes a lot of money and a lot of effort, but it is a game changer. And we lose sight of that. And we do and we you know, guest we always used to say here resort collection, our guests leave with two things they leave with a memory and a folio. And if that memory is more important than the folio, they'll come back if that folio is more important to them, and gets more focused in the memories. They're not coming back. They're going somewhere else.

Lino Maldonado  22:18  
Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, you think about this is the hospitality industry we're in what does that mean? It means we're in an industry that's, that's designed to deliver great experiences to other people. And there's 1000 things on a daily basis that that you can turn to from that perspective. But there's a reason that local wins, you know, there's a reason our scenic stays business, we've doubled every single year, and we're on a trajectory to continue that into the future. And we're up against some pretty big names, some of our old former colleagues are still in the game. And, and we win most of those discussions, because I think as you aggregate these companies, you think you need to centralize more and more of the business. And the reality is, you're pulling too much resource away from where it matters most. And that's in front of the guests. And so, you know, it's it isn't, as Paul said, it's not rocket science. It's basic hospitality stuff. And I hate to hear the most recent Vacasa layoffs another 320, I would argue that they are probably still way top heavy to top any, there's not enough resource going to where it matters most. And that's in front of the owners and the guests to do the things that that these other three guys have really outlined. But it takes a concerted effort and focus to deliver on hospitality, that's the business they're in. And you can't run this business off of spreadsheets from central location, it's you got to be close to the business on a day to day basis. And you're not competing with other large brands, any I know you're new with a great new brand today. But at the end of the day, when I walk into meetings to competing for a building or a Marriott, it's not sitting in that room against me, you know, I'm against Jeanne Daly and Sterling and southern resorts and V trips and all these others that can all make decisions instantly. And so if I walk in as Wyndham or Vikasa, and I've got to take my notes from that meeting back to this big corporate juggernaut to get approvals to move anything forward. I'm going to lose every single time. So I think being a local operations company, is the perfect spot in this day and time to be in. I think I have a question

Annie Holcombe  24:29  
on that actually related to investment. So one of the things that like you just Vic casick is an example like they had to kind of angle or pitch themselves to the technology company because I think technology is sexy, and that's where people want to invest their money and that's what Wall Street wants to put their attention towards. So how does a company in hospitality in our space and vacation rentals, attract that money and potentially go public in a way that they Don't have to compromise the core of the business, the hospitality because it feels like that's what ultimately has to happen to compete. At that level,

Lino Maldonado  25:09  
I'll just make one quick comment, and then I'll turn it over. The reason I didn't make a turn with Vikasa, when we sold to them in really fall of 2019, is that what we were building was a hospitality company, again, very small C suite, very small middle management and lots of resources in the field, to support owners and guests in our company culture. And I did not see that business model with Vacasa. And so I was like, Look, I You can't scale what you're trying to do in this industry for investment and for the other components of whether it be technology or anything else. If you're not going to be in the hospitality business. I'm not interested in being in that group. And so that's why specifically I made that decision. Nobody who has aggregated companies has really gotten the basic premise. Right yet. You know, and so I think that's why you know, I trips you know, it's done so extremely well, PMI, Costco, somebody's franchise models are doing great because they're localizing the operations. That's exactly right.

Steve Caron  26:16  
Exactly, I remember when, when they first started, and Jim was telling me about him, he was he was involved with some of the early parts. And I was like, There's no way that's going to work. Because it's, you know, and as I, as I became a partner in the company years ago, it's depressing. I said, What do you think now, and I was like, Well, it's a pretty brilliant strategy, because it because it's exactly what you just said, lino, it really is a diversified investment. These are investors in the business and they have a stake. They're local. So you get the local, and then you roll up the parts that matter, the parts that you can put, you don't over control it from a central location. And it's a kind of a perfect blend, there's a balance there. And you have to make sure that everybody, everybody's winning along the way. But I think it's a model that can work in scale. And it's working with 108 franchisees and above 130 markets, right trip, Casa goes got scale that similar, it's a model that works because it keeps ownership local, it keeps that there. But you can roll up some pieces of the technology that drives some of the business that doesn't overburden it on one on an individual company, the one location, it's hard to have that scale. So you get the eyes of the big players out there. But you get the boutique care at the local level. I think it's a model that works. I'm a believer in it. I'm an investor in it. So I'm a believer. But it definitely works. It

Paul Wohlford  27:39  
does work and watching what you're doing and watching what companies you know, I deal with Alec lane and real joy, that have this big Halo brand out there. But they keep the local guys local and let them do what they do. And just are there for support. The money's not chasing the hospitality, that's for sure. So those guys, let them operate at the local level and giving them the support. And that's to me, that's what works.

Jim Olin  28:04  
Maybe our industry is not cut out to have 50 public companies all doing it. You know, this may be something there's other ways to exit. And it may be that at certain companies that fit a certain models, but you got to remember, we're not the ones that are dictating how we even look. And I feel for the guys in Picasa right now. My personal I mean, some of them are my good friends. I know what it's like, I know what it's like looking at a 26 year old dweeb from Smith, Barney. And he's telling me he's gonna put me in a strong sell, because I'm not gonna hit my one penny. Armed if we quick story real quick when we, when I first took over resortquest, the CEO, we had all of the all of the stock people that were following us the equity guys, all came into town, I think lino, you helped show him around and Edie Seymour who was my CIO at the time. And we had them all on the balcony at tides and topsole, top floor, the spine units, the three bedroom units of tides, and we had them all out on the balcony, there was like 20 of them. And we were going through the spiel about you know, it's a beautiful unit. And one guy raised his hand and said, How do you keep from these things getting trashed during spring break? And Edie said, well, the rules here are 26 years of age and above, or you got to be married, and there was dead silence. That's silence. And you know what that guy said back? I guess none of us can stay with you. Right? Those are the ones that are digging in

Annie Holcombe  29:39  
the decision. Yeah.

Jim Olin  29:44  
I gotta get back into my shorts and my flip flops and get the heck out of Wall Street.

Annie Holcombe  29:48  
People not in the business trying to tell the business how to run the business. never worked a day in the right. Like I think I think like to the cost point, and I've said this to a certain CEO of a car company that we all know that, you know, you can have your opinions about them, but we need them to succeed. We don't need them to fall flat on their face for a multitude of reasons. I mean, every time they have to lay off, that means they're not being as successful as you know, they could be. And people are affected by that. And it's it affects the whole industry, it affects what people look at about, you know, do you want your kids going into that business? Do you want to work in that business? And do you want to invest in that business? All the things so I feel like we want to we want to cheer them on. But to your point, Jim, I think it's a good good thing to say like, do we belong in the public space? Probably not just because we're so unique from market to market, just just the Think of the the Panhandle alone, from one stretch of Panama City Beach to the other is different. And then you start putting in all the little beaches along 30. A, those are all completely different markets, you know, every 200 yards, so it's hard to manage. But how do I think, you know, what, what does success look like for a large scale company? Paul, you mentioned a couple like stoically, and I mean, again, they're doing a great job, real joy, keeping that boots on the ground, like look and feel. And Alex and I talk about this all the time that I don't have a problem with people coming in and trying to, like optimize operations at a high level where it's going to be a cost savings. But if you start to lose Sterling resorts had a really great footprint on Panama City Beach. And when they went away as Sterling resorts that was a big hit, not just to the business, but to the destination, because they were so involved and so engaged, and they were a stand out operator, and that just completely went away. And I think that, you know, the more that happens, the more these beaches lose kind of their luster and their lower of being a destination. So I don't know what the answer is. But there's a lot more questions than there are answers.

Steve Caron  31:40  
CASA is is trying to, you know, we haven't seen them ship, they've had a number of layoffs. Right. There's, I think they're understanding that the technology can't be their lead. Right. Yeah, I think they understand that and I think it's a it's a take time, it's a it's going to shift over time. I think they've been shifting there. I think they've been more competitive. I think they've been more locally focused. And you know, I think that I think that they're seeing where they want to go I think it's gonna take some time to get there because it is what it is but I still think when you have an a local owner operator and I think that's the challenge you can get great general managers but they're general managers and they and a lot of them work really hard but the you know, the decisions don't get made 100% there and when you have a local owner operator, the decisions are made you can you can compete. You can you can you also show up at dinner, you show up at that local meetings for other things, your owners or investors and owners of your units and, you know, there's that local flair that that's needed. And so I found hard at the public level for that to occur for Real Property Management.

Alex Husner  32:49  
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Paul Wohlford  34:29  
acquisition. The guys that have been successful leave their egos at the door. They really do rely on the local guys. And sometimes through acquisition comes inflated ego, oh, we're spending the money. We've got the money therefore we know what's best. And that's not true. You got to be there. You know I preach and we preach here that the inverted pyramid where if you're really the senior leadership, you're at the bottom of that pyramid it's upside down and you're supporting those layers within your company and those guys with the boots on the ground. They make the best decisions there in the fields that I know. But the guys successful at it, leave their egos at the door and will continue to and that to me is what makes them successful.

Lino Maldonado  35:09  
It's great. Oh, that was kind of leading in that direction. Anyway, I agree with what you said about you know, because we need them to succeed as an industry, we were all really pulling for them. Yeah, but hospitality you can't fake. Okay, it's got to be authentic at every level, whether it's your technology or whether it's your operating model, or whether it's your local you know, folks but you know, I point to a couple of things when when I left Wyndham, I handed the keys to my boss at to my boss to hand over to a casa, a fully functioning highly profitable, really good hospitality culture. And literally, I said to Bob Milne, who's the one because I told that I was not making the turn, before the deal was was, was inked. And I said, Bob, you don't have to touch a thing. This is like an ATM machine, you know, and they, they can't help adjusting things that really don't need to be messed with. Technology, it shouldn't be in the shadows, and it should be just functioning, but it doesn't have a name or a face or anything, it should be just producing great efficiencies or good results. On behalf of your owners and guests. They switched to I guess it was called de casa suite at the time, the housekeeping in all the like, and my, my housekeeping managers were calling me in tears, because they they lost visibility into their day to day. And on the very first weekend of conversion, one of my top housekeeping managers in the Gulf Shores Orange Beach area, she missed 12 cleans on a Saturday in season six of which were owner arrivals, oh my god, I'm literally in tears distraught. And so I called Bob and I said, Bob, you really need to give her a call. And understand from her perspective, the tools that she now does not have access to. And, but they felt like their technology was better, their process were better. And they weren't listening to the people doing the job every day, Paul, that to your point. That's where an ego can ruin your business. Because whenever I need to change something in our businesses, I talk to the people doing the work every day first.

Steve Caron  37:28  
So you know, the interesting, that's when Jim came in the business. He spent the first six months in the business he was he was the president working for Bill and Bill Abbott when he was coming and Bill Abbott was hired as a new C suite. And Jim cleaned units got fired from by dot out it

Lino Maldonado  37:46  
was not fired me that made.

Jim Olin  37:51  
She fired me from cheap, fitted sheet folding, I couldn't fold them up and you're off this line don't work into Terry's

Annie Holcombe  38:00  
fell the fitted sheet though really come on.

Steve Caron  38:08  
Talking about well, we built the underlying parts to that. That was that was done by housekeeping, executive housekeepers. And it was us in the field sitting with the maintenance and housekeeping teams, building the tools that would become those reports that ultimately you were using that was done at a grassroots level to build up to say, how do you run the business? So you're spot on and and as when you when you understand the nature of the business because you've done it? You know, it's the same with soft software people that are writing software. I remember when we took over when I took over CIO and I walked out the first resort folks. And I asked him how many people what business you're in. And while I'm at the customer service, I'm at this. And I reminded them they're all in the hospitality business. And many of those people are writing front desk check ins software, and I've never checked into a unit much less stood next to somebody. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's how we app V 12, which was actually version 12 At one point, but there were like seven versions. What else right? That's

Annie Holcombe  39:08  
such a long time ago. Oh my god. It

Jim Olin  39:10  
was there. I literally will remember v 12. And Tom Letty, given the presentation in basalt, Colorado, couldn't breathe for two days man

Steve Caron  39:21  
that that were collaborative with people we built tools that were collaborative with, with housekeeping managers, those tools matter and it has to function that has to function perfectly on the back the back turn weekend. It can't fail. Well, unclean units is a disaster. That's gonna

Jim Olin  39:39  
take that all into consideration. And I think we're all on the same page at the local operators have a better chance of winning right now. One topic that's come up a lot I would say probably in the last five years has been the standardization and the professionalism of the industry and you know, who's going to tackle it and when Marriott homes and villas came in there was a tension there. or the franchise model has added tension to it as well. But it's, it's a very hard thing to do, because there's just no way an operator in Myrtle Beach is going to operate the exact same way in Denver, Colorado. So how do you feel that we can ever get to that point? Should we even bother trying to get to that point? What can be standardized versus what do we need to maybe communicate better as a brand of what vacation rentals are that we are a mixed bag?

Lino Maldonado  40:29  
I think it's a great, great question. But Jim, you know, sort of hit on the things we can do. Right? Think about thread counts, think about quality, you know, toilet papers and disposables and the like. You know, when we rolled out Jim, the platinum gold, silver, silver 1000s There's, there's about 15 funny stories I could give

Jim Olin  40:48  
you our system, Steve set it up so that let's say Leno gave somebody a gold. And the same unit next door is a platinum the platinum will get more bookings, because we tell them that they're not getting any.

Annie Holcombe  41:03  
It was great to compete against that I tell you.

Lino Maldonado  41:07  
It's such a subjective model, right? Because the platinum in Destin at Sun Dustin is different than a platinum in Destin at Emerald towers, which is right next door, by the way. Yeah. And so it's

Steve Caron  41:21  
different, again, to a house in the Outer Banks, right? Yeah. And

Lino Maldonado  41:26  
you know, you can't standardize on a on a thing like that, it's got to be something based in reality in the quality of the you know, the the supplies and the like, can really matter. I don't know that it's as necessary anymore. Because you're able to yield, manage and really get, you know, the better units are going to perform better because they're getting a higher rate, versus trying to tell a customer that that the platinum that you stayed in, and Telluride is going to be the same as the platinum you get in Panama City. You know,

Annie Holcombe  41:55  
I think we're not apples to apples.

Steve Caron  41:58  
But I think what Marriott it's come in and done. It's about having a service attitude, part of that agreement, that onerous agreement that that we worked through, and we're partners, and they've been a great partner on us. And I think one of the things they put a focus on, though, is about service standards and expectations that their customers expect and living to that. So I think it's about enforcing not a gold platinum bronze level of a unit. I think it's it's, it's really about standardized, standardizing on quality of product in the unit, that the guests experience about guest experience and attitude towards the business on how you approach it. And it has to be a service level. And I think, Paul, you're right, it's an inverted pyramid that that works. If you have that as your service standard. And we standardize that of when you stay in a short term rental, you're gonna get a service level, that's second to none. That's a standard that we can apply across the industry.

Jim Olin  42:53  
And you guys all know, I mean, in a lot of cases, some of the your best reviews and best clients or guests come from when things go wrong, because you have that opportunity to fix it for them. So it's like, you're really taking that at the core of the hospitality that guests experience and having that just sense of, you know, being creative and how you're going to fix the problem. It problem solving in general, is part of our industry, and goes a long way. So it doesn't have to be everything in a box. That's exactly the same way.

Paul Wohlford  43:22  
Well, you bring up Alex, that's a good point. Because, you know, Marriott is a great company and standardization belongs there. But you know, when Marriott bought the company I worked with Out in the desert Renaissance hotels, you know, if you if you had a challenge with a guest, if you want to know what the answer was, it was in a binder on the shelf behind you. That's, that's a little too far. And that's why I got into the VR space is you you touched on a great point that all our guests have these individual problems, we have to attack them individually. And it's very important that guest satisfaction because the other thing that's changed that we're not talking about is our guest expectations have changed dramatically. You know, if you overcook a cheeseburger, they want a week free in a four bedroom home.

Annie Holcombe  44:04  
That's reasonable. What do you

Jim Olin  44:07  
call your overcooks? Your

Lino Maldonado  44:11  
call next time?

Paul Wohlford  44:13  
Right? But our guest expectations have changed dramatically. And I don't want to throw out the word entitlement. But many of these guests show up with a chip on their shoulder ready to get something for free. And back 20 years ago, or even to Jim's point when he was around 50 years ago, it's different. That's a different animal. We deal with different problems. And these problems get escalated very highly, very quickly, where they used to be much more reasonable problems we dealt with with reasonable people

Annie Holcombe  44:44  
has changed that social media has allowed that instantaneous get out to the masses kind of mentality and

Jim Olin  44:50  
we can standardize a few things. Yeah, I don't I don't I don't agree with the whole idea of pure standardization because that's one of the niches that's why my wife and I Travel, we want to see different things at different places, other than black and white and vanilla. But one is, I think it's ridiculous that every state in the United States has a different set of rules, that they keep changing for our industry. Yeah, I understand. I agree, we kind of snuck up between timeshare and hotels, and we weren't anything but to have to have 700 broker licenses in North Carolina and do 17 different steps, and then drive down the street to Florida and have to do virtually nothing. But then you have this whole deal with the rules about, you know, safety and all that I think safety and local regulatory, if we could just find a way to get those two in our industry, because we don't control the asset at the level. And that's what worries me about the safety aspect, we don't control the asset at the same level that a hotel does. And that, that could that could end up biting us.

Steve Caron  45:54  
I think regulatory is a response to the fact that I had a history teacher in my high school used to say is control yourself or be controlled. Right. Right. Yeah, we don't organically set a standard that is that is guest friendly, that isn't that isn't that isn't driving, legislate legislatures to want to regulate, right? If we regulate ourselves, that the need to regulate us will go down. And while we need to be active, and, and I'm a, I'm a big believer in right to rent and, and the whole ownership and the value of an owner having a unit and their their ability to rent their units out. But you can't do that irresponsibly and you have to be a good neighbor, you have to operate in your community. In a way it goes back to that local ownership and understanding how to be part of the community. And if we did that, well, everywhere, those those regulations, and the noise for that would go down. Yeah. Being responsive

Lino Maldonado  46:50  
to my language there. You know, on the regulatory stuff, you know, I've been involved for many years at the FMLA level in Florida and Government Affairs with the RMA. And you just hit on really the heart of our issue. As an industry. When you look at hotels, you look at timeshares. They're lobbying entities nationwide, and their associations are air tight, solid, every hotel brand is involved deeply. And we're very fragmented, we tend to not get together and get involved until something punches in the face, or threatens to shut down our business or add significant additional expense to it on a thin margin already. And I think that's one of the areas that as an industry, we really have to get serious about. Because what happens locally, as you guys all know, is that one or two local residents come into these meetings with voting power for the folks sitting on those councils, these little city councils. And we've got a whole mess of owners that are absentee. And we're their only voice. So if we all as business owners can't get together and be that voice with the voting authority on those local councils, then we're never going to get to that next level in some of these local councils. The if you put the right people in those chairs, it might be a difference of a couple of dozen votes, you have gotten for 400 bucks versus something getting all the way to the state level with hundreds of 1000s of dollars that it would take to, you know, to enact change. So

Jim Olin  48:19  
one thing we talk about quite a bit on the show, too, is just the lack of the two sides of the industry, the legacy companies with the newer STR people that have bought in in the last, you know, five years or so. And there's just there's not really an event or one association that has done a even a decent job of bringing them together. I know that there were maybe this that could be Artemis comeback of UTMA. Because think about I mean atma was I mean geared towards the onsite condo resorts, they were having the worst problems back then and they're still having probably the worst problems. Now with those offside honors is a significant problem.

Annie Holcombe  48:57  
Maybe this is a good topic for everybody to weigh in on like, what do you think is our opportunity? There is the opportunity we have identified it, how do we bring those two sides together? One thing that alex and I've done a couple of panels since the beginning of the year, and one of them in particular was women in the STR space. And overwhelmingly there was 200 plus people on this particular session that we were in that they didn't know where to go to get information. vrma is not reaching them. And there's not an association on the STR side. And again, I bring it up often if you look at the pie that we as the professional side occupy, it's very much outweighed by these str these individuals, these smaller groups, who again, if they don't have access to information, and they don't know what they're doing, they're all making it up as they go along. Which we know can be bad can be good. I mean, sometimes they're creating new, you know, new innovative ways to do stuff, but a lot of times they're just creating more problem if they just had the information and had access and had education. So how do we how do we as the professional side, open up and in invite them in and make them understand that like, again, together, we can prevent some of these things that are frustrating all of us. That's a good question.

Steve Caron  50:07  
I think there's a number of us that have, you know, influence over large numbers of companies and indoor locations. And the extent that we can, we should put our money where our mouth is, and we should participate. Right. And I think we can all get busy sometimes when we forget that, that what you're talking about is super, super important. So I think we there are some organizations out there particularly on the advocacy side that I think we should support. I think that's one step. I think that could be, I think we should have a consortium of some of the larger players out there talking regularly not not to colluded to set pricing, but to set standards and to set standards of practice. And, and we can't hold everything to ourselves, I think there are, there's a lot of experiences a lot of best practice that if we shared that, and there was a forum to share that it would lift the industry up and new operators that are coming in wouldn't make up new things that that are tried and true. And rather put their energy into things that are you know, don't make the mistakes I've made make met, find some new areas to blaze new ground, right, don't make the same mistakes over and over again. And that's a critical piece. I wish our associations that are out there would step into that. But for right or for for whatever reason, you know, I think usually it's just bureaucratic roadblocks that keep us from getting there. And I think, put some egos aside and build that after one

Lino Maldonado  51:29  
of the series that I really have enjoyed as Brooke Felts. Put together, you know, top mistakes in the industry. He just recently did one about, you know, the property, or the rental management agreements, you know, and get some sharing of those kinds of things. That's a great first step in maybe he's the vehicle or if we can all, you know, help, you know, proliferate some of those things that he's working on, because that's exactly what he's trying to do is bring it in together and

Steve Caron  51:56  
started an association. I think we should start there. Yeah, I've

Annie Holcombe  51:59  
talked about that, actually.

Jim Olin  52:03  
Have you guys ever gone to an artist convention?

Annie Holcombe  52:06  
Oh, yeah. No.

Jim Olin  52:09  
Arta artists got their act. So together. No, I haven't been in a while. But it's the timeshare industry. Yeah, American resort Development Association. And let me tell you some, that's a group that is about as competitive and bloodthirsty as you will get in any industry. And everything has sales and closings and financing, but you go to an art convention, and you feel like it's one gigantic happy family. Yeah. And they're, they're sharing data, hard data, not just garbage. I mean, the whole time, you're there, you're learning. Now, they they started a little different than us, but they go through a lot of the same things. Okay. And we should be more mature enough that we should have an order at that level. I mean, I love going to conventions. I learn more there than I did at any other one I ever went to any other convention, anything.

Paul Wohlford  52:57  
Oh, when when Jim started that I thought he was referencing AARP since.

Jim Olin  53:10  
I am not a member of AARP, but I am on Medicare.

You said that those conferences are so good, what's different as far as the content there? I mean, are they talking more also about hospitality? And then we've talked about today,

it's, well, the timeshare industry is so weird. Like they talk a lot about the financing part because that's where they make their most money. But the convention itself is it everybody walks in. The attitude in the room is let's figure out how to make ourselves better. As an industry. Let's talk about the problem, the pain points. They still hate each other when they get out in the real world, or beat each other up. But they have their own set. What hurts me is our industry hasn't gotten the and I'm not bashing Verma. I never went to Varma until I started doing the m&a and we just didn't go we were so big. We were kind of having to forge it ourselves. But I mean, conference had been doing great. The data conference to me has always been one that I walk away with a bunch of stuff, okay, because we venture so far out of data at those meetings that are so good. And a ton of hallway knowledge too, which is good. The old days,

Steve Caron  54:18  
the software. I know the first resort forum, it goes way, way, way back in the day used to be at the Aspen Institute, you know, there was an attempt to educate. And so back then they have 40 45% market share of software. And I think a lot of the software companies out there today, some of the bigger ones are doing shows still, you know, streamline has one eye trip does one it's a very collaborative event. I unfortunately those events are just isolated to those communities. I think there are events that are happening in small pockets that if we could capture that energy that comes from those those into into the mainstream. I think there's there's a format for an already built and I think it's just not It's not touching the whole industry. And we have to find a way to make that happen. Well, I don't know, guys,

Annie Holcombe  55:04  
there's a lot we're going to talk. Yeah. So

Jim Olin  55:07  
good so that we so we have one question that we were really excited to ask all you guys today. And I think we asked Lena when you came on the show, I don't remember if we asked you, Steve, I don't think we did. But we want to go around the room. What advice would you give your 25 year old self looking back now over all these crazy years that you've had in the business,

Paul Wohlford  55:26  
if I've had any success in my career, it's building relationships. So I would go back and I've got 320, whatever year olds right now, I wish I would encourage myself back then, or anybody in that ace to be a bridge builder and help people get to a place they can't get on their own. And if you look out for others, and are honest and true to others, and help others and answer calls, and just be there for others, and collaborate, it'll take care of itself from then on. Because you'll be you'll be great, get great with guests will be great with colleagues and just take care of those around you and those you interact with and everything will work out just fine.

Steve Caron  56:04  
Agreed. Be curious enough to not just stay in your lane a little bit, but to try to understand what other parts of the business are doing. If you're come in this business, and you're an ops person, or you're a technology person, to broaden your view a little bit and to really, really understand how it all comes together. And that's in my early days, I was a technologist and it wasn't until Jim and I started Sterling, that I really started crossing those barriers and, and working across large parts of the business and understanding and I think the leaders of the industry need to have a wide focus of how it all works. So that when we get into this kind of discussion about how do we lift the industry up, you can talk across across vertical parts of the business. If you get too narrow, you can be an expert in one thing, but it's hard to it's hard to be relevant across the business. If you want to lead one of these, you have to clean some toilets, right? You've got to you got to understand how hard it is to fold a fitted sheet and, and what it takes for a marketing person to be successful in driving SEO. And if you don't, if you don't get in and do some of that and cross that barrier you don't know. And if you don't know it's hard to have a valid opinion about it. I would have bought more on those earlier as well that

Annie Holcombe  57:19  
we all own 30

Lino Maldonado  57:23  
goes a lot longer right? It's yeah, don't forget that we're in the hospitality business and have fun. This is not rocket science. This is really about delivering great experiences consistently to other people. And Paul I love what you just said about bridge building. I've got my next generation starting at scenic stage She's my daughter graduated December of last year and started with scenic and she's on her I think her 10th week now and we had the conversation just the other day about being a bridge builder. Don't don't think you know everything even though you just come out of college stop and learn something new every day you know and it's exciting to see a another strong hospitality woman coming up in the in the industry. That's great.

Steve Caron  58:06  
Any show coming up to me it does Yeah.

Jim Olin  58:09  
A family and business you'd have to have mine all over the place. They're all interesting tree. offspring, my trees a little weird. I got some roots in there. Let me tell you. I will tell you this. I'm blessed to have Bill Abbott as my mentor here or this industry is just I got luck. Just flat out lucky. I mean, I got the bill hired me. But his business acumen. And I'm not just talking about this space Bill, who, to me is one of the founders of the industry he just lived off of if it's fair, do it. Okay. And I can tell you story after story of him leaving millions on the table, because he didn't feel like it was fair to take. It wasn't illegal anymore. He just didn't agree. And if a guest had a problem and he felt like they were that was correct. He gives him his house. And I learned that kind of mentality and that kind of service now, he got older and he said I've had enough and he hired me and so forth. But I was able to keep that all the way through and Bill's other thing was built surrounded himself and this is gonna sound very egotistical. He sounds he surrounded himself with people smarter than him in the sense of I'm not going to do it I need the best so when he brought in Joanne saucy eight to do it joins the best. Okay. You know, when you get down to that nitty gritty running managers everywhere and you know, 250 500 Turn back the backs. Nobody better. He screwed up with me, but I'll take it

Steve Caron  59:54  
made it easier for you to hire people smarter than you. Yes.

Jim Olin  59:57  
Except you Steve Nice, lino, yes, you've now

Steve Caron  1:00:04  
if you're not failing nine out of 10 times, you're not trying hard enough. Yeah,

Annie Holcombe  1:00:07  
great. Well,

Paul Wohlford  1:00:10  
I think I hadn't heard word yet. But the the common thread or a common thread among the six tiles I'm looking at is, everyone on this today has a passion for this business. And they care about it. And they, again, it's answering the phone at 11 o'clock at night and checking in on your partners and making sure everybody's doing okay. And then we all are, we all care about this industry. That's why we got into it. And it's not the same across the board, but this group and others like us, I mean, we, we live it, we love it, you have to because it's 24/7. So we all have a passion for it. And that's, that's a great, great asset.

Jim Olin  1:00:47  
Well, thank you guys so very much for having us here today. This is probably one of the more unique formats that we've had just wonderful conversation and I met all of you actually any included us. So that was very good thing for me back in the day. But it's just grateful for all of you and what you do for the industry and for joining us. And I know our listeners are gonna really get a lot from what you share today. So thank you guys, we

Paul Wohlford  1:01:13  
appreciate all you do. Yep, what

Steve Caron  1:01:14  
you're doing is phenomenal. So outstanding girl,

Annie Holcombe  1:01:17  
thank you for supporting us and we will have you back for OGS part two later, this is a series

Jim Olin  1:01:28  
everybody's contact information as we go around the room right now. So if anybody wants to reach out to any of these four gentlemen, just go to the show notes. In the meantime, if you want to reach out to any anime, you can go to Alex and Annie podcast.com And until next time, thanks for tuning in everyone.