The Role of PR in Building Your Vacation Rental Brand with Jessica Gillingham

Alex Husner  0:01  
Welcome to Alex & Annie: the real women of vacation rentals. I'm Alex and I'm Annie. We are joined today by Jessica Gillingham, who is the CEO and founder of Abode Worldwide. Jessica, it's so good to see you. Thank you for joining us. 

Jessica Gillingham  0:49  
Thank you so much for having me. Both of you really thrilled to be on this podcast.

Annie Holcombe  0:54  
Well, we're honored that you had the time to join us, because we know you're a very busy woman. And funny enough, we had never met before. You and I, we talked via LinkedIn. So this is getting excited to be able to talk to you and learn more about what you have going on. But would love for you to introduce yourself to our audience and tell us a little bit about how you got into the world of PR and then, obviously tied with the short term rental industry,

Jessica Gillingham  1:15  
absolutely. And yeah, I can't believe we've never actually met senior in passing at Burma, you know, but not actually met. So, yeah, so thrilled to be on this podcast. You know, you guys have done such a great job with this podcast, and really, you know, it's had sustainability as well as in it's been going for quite some time now, which is really great. So kudos to you both. Thank

Alex Husner  1:35  
you. Appreciate that. Yeah,

Jessica Gillingham  1:37  
no. Just really good to be here both of you. And abode worldwide is a public relations agency. We work predominantly with tech companies that are in the short term rental space, also in hotels and multi family and we help them raise their profiles and build their reputation and create that halo of trust around their brand. I

Alex Husner  1:56  
love that, and it's really cool too, that you have stayed very niche within our space, and that you really don't have a whole lot of competition out there, and there's a lot of digital marketing agencies, but there's not really anyone that comes to mind that I know of, at least, besides a boat. And I think you guys have done a really great job of kind of, you know, building yourself up as the experts, but you're over in London, correct? Yeah,

Jessica Gillingham  2:17  
we're actually a remote team. We work with 60% of our clients. Are actually based in the US. We also work across Europe as well, so we kind of work globally, hence the worldwide, but I am based in the UK.

Alex Husner  2:30  
Okay, yeah, as it seems like, you guys always have the pulse of the industry. You always know what's going on, and clearly you're very well informed with all the clients that you have representing a lot of different sides of the industry. But tell us a little bit about before you got to about, I mean, what is your history? Were you in PR, you know, from out of school and then just somehow floated into short term rentals, like most of us, or where did it begin? So

Jessica Gillingham  2:53  
I kind of floated, but I was also quite strategic about going into short term rentals and vacation rentals. So I actually started my career in in the travel industry, in the Canadian travel industry. So despite the fact that I'm very British sounding, I'm actually both British and Canadian. So I've had a lot of my formative years in Canada. And when I finished university, I had a sort of a dream to set up a company that would bring the sort of the whole Canadian cottage on a lake experience the British people. So this is long before there was Airbnb or Canada stays or anything like that. There was no sort of way of anyone booking that type of vacation. If you weren't a sort of Torontonian that was in the vicinity. You didn't even know that it existed. So I was very intentional about getting my first experience in the Canadian travel industry. So I worked in tour operating, and was lucky enough to kind of travel all across Canada and sort of really learn about travel in that sort of tour operating sort of segment of it. And my idea was to get the experience and then set up my own platform, which I did do. So I actually launched a booking platform, a sort of mini Airbnb, if you like. I think it was in sort of 2012 and it was just the sort of Airbnb was also, and not to ever say I was, you know, I was obviously not at those levels, but it did well. And what it did also is it really got me into the vacation rental sector. I met Heather Baer. Was one of the first people that I met, Andy McDonald too, from touch today, you know, really sort of started to learn. And it was just as the industry was kind of exploding, this new wave of new operators, new technology, lots of funding coming in, so I kind of caught the wave of short term rentals. And the reason that I then am a PR agency and not a booking platform is that I also realized that actually it was the PR side of it that I loved and that I was much better at than than doing product or kind of developing product for. Sale. So I decided to just re pivot and through sort of a few other channels and few other kind of industries, I launched a boat the back end of 2016 and 2017

Annie Holcombe  5:13  
so if there was ever an industry that needed PR short term and vacation, Alex and I both been in, I've been in short term rentals since late 90s, and was in hotels prior to that, there's never been anybody that really could focus on helping us figure out what we were and how to say who we are and and that spent felt, you know, it spilled over into like how the OTAs worked with the segment, and so your timing was probably perfect. So you got into the business, you obviously had a passion for it, which is really great. And you're probably the first person that we have interviewed that actually said you had this intention of going into it, because most of us just sort of fell into it. So it's great to hear that. But once you, once you started thinking like, okay, I can help. From a PR perspective, did you also recognize that we had a segment of business that people just didn't understand how to articulate what we did. So

Jessica Gillingham  6:07  
I think it's really interesting, because even though it feels sometimes like this is a newish industry, like it all started when Airbnb, which we all know is not true, you know, if you were in it since the 90s, and you know, where I'm from, in the UK, we've always stayed in cottages or other people's homes. And, you know, all gone to France and stayed in Jeets. You know, it's been a really, kind of common way of taking a vacation, particularly if you're a family. But what's kind of exploded is that it's, it's far more of the traveling demographic that are now in short term rentals. They are a much bigger option. And, you know, for instance, the OTA have them as a long side hotels as a sort of buying option for travelers. So that has all changed. So I don't think that the fact of staying in a home causes any one trouble has been a sort of a difficult thing to explain or for people to sort of understand, certainly not in Europe. I think it probably is a little bit different in the US. But I think where the challenge is is that the explosion of it, like we all know, it's impacted, you know, society in all sorts of ways, positively, but also negatively, you know, in those small amounts. So I think it's helping people to understand that this is a professional industry, that this is an industry that is is worthwhile being on, you know, the the tourist economy, discussions, you know, and those kind of things. And also that there is all this, all this stuff around it as well, you know, all the different tech tools and suppliers and vendors and conversations, you know, even podcasts that sort of go all around the industry, and it's still really in its infancy as well.

Alex Husner  7:47  
Absolutely, we've talked on the show many times with a lot of different people about the whole concept of hashtag. We are not Airbnb, and we actually even had shirts at one point. Still do about that. And I'm just curious for your take, because people ask us about that all the time too. Of you know, if we're not Airbnb, then what are we and is there any possibility to ever take it back, what we are as a product of a vacation rental or a short term rental, or is it okay that you know the impact that Airbnb has made, at least as far as you know, getting the accommodations type out and the awareness out. Should we be worried about the fact that we've all been commoditized like a Kleenex? Or should we let it go and ride the coattails of it?

Jessica Gillingham  8:29  
So it's interesting, because I might have a sort of fairly controversial, you know, view,

Alex Husner  8:34  
oh, we want to hear it. That's,

Jessica Gillingham  8:38  
I think, you know, a lot of people have become really quite rich because of Airbnb. You know, you think about the fact that this industry has exploded, you know, it has done it hand in hand with Airbnb putting short term rentals on the map for, you know, a huge demographic of travelers. It's also, from a traveler perspective, allowed people to stay in places that they wouldn't otherwise have been able to access. You know, whether that's from an affordability pack, when Airbnb was the cheaper option, like we all know, that's kind of changed, but from an accessibility perspective, you know, being able to stay in places where there are, there isn't a hotel, you know, in in certain towns or suburbs or different parts of the city or different kind of locations. So of all its faults, I think that Airbnb has been an incredibly positive force in terms of growing this sector and bringing it to a point where it's much more accessible, not just from the hosts and the managers side, but also from the guest tourist side. So for me, Airbnb isn't the big bad wolf that has come and ruined everything. Yes, it's not perfect, and that, you know, as with any kind of commercial entity, there's, there's issues with it, but it's helped a lot of people make a lot of money. You know, a lot of property managers get their guests through Airbnb. And, you know, a lot of property managers have started life since Airbnb came on board. There's a whole inflow of sort of new property managers or professional hosts that have have launched businesses because of it. And sorry, I'm going on a little bit here as well. But one of the things, I don't know if you talk about it on this show, but the fact that hosting, rather than, you know, professional hosting means that certain types of people, particularly women or people that might be, you know, doing other things, like caring for children, family, etc, are able to have some financial freedom by, you know, making that additional income. Those are things that we wouldn't have had without Airbnb. Yeah,

Alex Husner  10:39  
I think you're right on all of that. And the interesting thing that I've seen from the marketing perspective now is that, I mean, yes, people are just they're using Airbnb as the overall name for everything that we are, but when you look at Google search trends and PPC reports a lot of times, and we have great success with this with my clients, is that if they're searching Airbnb and the location name, Myrtle Beach Airbnb. They're not looking for Airbnb. I mean, they're looking for short term rentals in Myrtle Beach. And, you know, they could just go to Airbnb. They know that, but they're looking for other options. So, you know, love it or hate it. I mean, I think it's going to be really tough to change unless Airbnb just completely change or become a different type of a platform. I don't see how it would be very hard to change at this point, but, yeah, definitely, definitely interesting.

Jessica Gillingham  11:27  
I might just pick up on you said, you know, are we going to become a commoditized thing like Kleenex? Right? So Kleenex? We all know that Kleenex is tissue, but if you go into a grocery store, you know, there are other brands. It might be no name brands or whatever. You might say, I'm going to go and pick up some Kleenex, but you don't necessarily pick up that brand of Kleenex. You might pick up no frills or whatever, and same I don't know whether you call vacuum cleaners Hoovers over here, over you know, in the US, but we call vacuum cleaners Hoovers because that was the name of the big company that bought them, about, you know, that invented them, or whatever. However, today we have Dyson. So we, you know, most people would have a Dyson, not a Hoover, but we still use that term Hoover, and it doesn't denigrate or take anything away from the fact that there are other types of vacuum cleaners that we use.

Annie Holcombe  12:17  
That's very, very true. So we do talk about this a lot. We talk about how it's opened up a whole world of new people in the industry, and people who, you know, they might not have had the opportunity to dabble in real estate, but now they are, and they feel they were, they're excited about it. And we love all the like, the passion that has been brought to like all different levels of it. But what we have seen, and the concern that I think, that Alex and I, we talk to people, is where those new people are coming in, and maybe they're not in tune with the rules and regulations of doing it, in tune with safety, in tune with like the things that a more professional legacy company would have in place. And so trying to get those people not just to look for information, but have access to information. So from a PR perspective, what do you think we could be doing as an industry to better enhance their experience and their startup in the business? So

Jessica Gillingham  13:09  
that's a really good question. So you know, I think when anyone's coming and booking somewhere like they do, know the difference of when they're booking a professionally managed short term rental to a home that might be just a, you know, a host doing a home or or a second home like, you know, not on a scale that a professional property manager like, I do think we should allow guests to like they do know the difference they can tell from the photos, you know, you can tell from the reviews, like you can kind of tell Like I certainly can when I go and, you know, book somewhere. But in terms of that education piece, you know, it is up to the platforms as well to make sure that stuff is in place. So you're, you know, we are seeing more and more that the platforms are putting in certain things, you know, like fire alarms, you know, all sorts of things that are going in to make it safety. They're looking at safety programs, they're looking at, you know, guest screening programs, all sorts of things. So they are tightening that up so at the point of sale, that stuff is there. And if you want to be a host, there are tick boxes that you need to do, or you want to put properties on. There are things that you need to do. But I think in terms of this education, it's really encouraging new managers and new hosts to join the associations, that of which there are, you know, the big national ones, but also regional and localized ones as well. And that is where they can learn how to do their businesses in a better way, just like any other small business that comes about. You know, we have all kinds of small businesses that are out there in the world that learn how to do it in the right way, in a professional way, with certification, with with whatever. So it's part of that much maturation as well as the of the industry is that more and more kind of legislation, regulation is coming in other things, in terms of education, I think that the industry does a. Really good job in a community wide. We've got tons of Facebook groups. There's tons of kind of, you know, coaches out there and that kind of thing that helps those smaller businesses develop and grow and learn from their peers as well. I think in terms of that, this industry is pretty amazing for that kind of peer to peer support. I

Alex Husner  15:19  
like your point about, I mean, other businesses, yes, of course, there's associations for any type of industry. I think the difference between what we have in short term vacation rentals is nobody went to school for this. I mean, maybe if you went to Cornell and got hotel marketing degree, that you might have translated the hospitality side to some of this. But there's not a short term rental University of large scale that people go to. So it's a lot of having to just kind of connect the dots on your own and find people that are in similar situations to you, to be able to help mentor you and share information, but just kind of curious your thoughts on that. I mean, if there was, if there ever was a true vacation rental at university, I mean, what impact would that have on the awareness and some of these issues that we have within the industry. So

Jessica Gillingham  16:04  
I think one of the points also is that there's the low barrier to entry, so there's no education, and that's a good thing and a bad thing, you know, that anybody can become a property manager. I think over the years, I've probably had about six different conversations with various people wanting to launch universities. Yeah, space. I've had, you know, six different people come to me and say, This is what I'm thinking. What do you think? I think there is a space for that? Absolutely I do. I think that the key is, is that whoever does do, let's say a university needs to be able to execute it, because it's all well and good having that as an idea, but actually executing it and making sure that it's, you know, really got great content, great reach for target market. You know, that's a different story. So I think probably what makes also really good sense is that if managers had things that they needed to do to not necessarily, you know, it's not a given. We, you know, we pass this test or whatever, and now we can operate. But more of a kind of a stamp of approval, a bit like systemica, with the, you know, environmental stuff in that Vanessa has done. It's like a stamp of approval. You don't have to have it, but you do look a lot better if you do have it. So if you have got some education and you have trained in hospitality and guest experience and customer service, that sort of thing, as well as following procedure etc, then that's a sort of a stamp of approval. And sometimes we look at this stuff as it as it's all external, like for guests. But also, I think that companies should do the same thing, looking at how they do their internal stuff, as in their staff. How do they treat their staff? You know, all those kinds of things can be learned as well. Yeah,

Alex Husner  17:52  
no, very good point. I think the stamp of approval type things that I've seen, they're good to have. I just, I think they're only as good as the awareness of what that stamp really means to the people that you're doing it, and you want to use that as a trust symbol, and that's where the challenge is. It's like, you know, Airbnb has been adopted, you know, across globally, but we're still in a position where to get some of these initiatives off the board. It's still a bit of a challenge. But who knows, maybe Airbnb will come right after this and say they're launching a university solve all the problems. I'm curious, though, on the process that you go through. So I've gotten to work with you on a couple projects, which has been a lot of fun, and I've seen it, but I'd love for you to share a little bit about how when you bring on a new client, like what that looks like, and essentially, you're helping these clients build a story. And I think that's really powerful, because a lot of companies, I mean, they they're in the weeds, they're in their business. They know what they do, whether they're a technology provider or a property manager, but it's hard to take yourself out of the business and really work on it, not in it, and have that perspective. In my experience, it seems like you've really mastered that, and a lot of it begins with that early work that you do. So just curious for you to tell us a little bit

Jessica Gillingham  19:01  
about that? Yeah, no, we have a real way of working with companies. So we actually even call it the Abode way, like we have a real structure of how we get under the skin of a company and then use our industry knowledge, which, you know, is pretty extensive now, as well as our knowledge of the competitor market, all of those things. And whoever we're working with customers, you know, knowing what they're looking for, their pain points. And we really go through a process of figuring out how to help them tell their story and find the unique strategy that might be their PR strategy, and then also making sure that and a lot of PR, I think that a lot of people PR, people think that PR means press release like it really doesn't. Press releases are probably about 10% of what we do. What we're really doing is helping a brand almost get into the psyche of an industry. So wherever you look, there it is, and you know you're. Really sort of understanding what they do. They're building that authority, that kind of leadership. And it's a real process that we go through. And sometimes, you know, we have to tell hard truths and sort of say, this isn't, you know, what you think is the thing you want to say is not the thing you want to say. You want to say this thing over here, you know, I've also you know, clients say it's almost like therapy, like professional therapy for you, yeah, yeah, to kind of call the strategy. And one of the things about my team is that we're very strategic. So we're always looking at objectives, goals. What does this mean for the business? How is this going to move you forward? But at the same time, we're very tactical it's about getting results and action and doing those things. So I think we marry that up really quite well. We'll be

Alex Husner  20:47  
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Annie Holcombe  23:06  
So what is your ideal client look like? Is there? Is it somebody who is starting out, somebody whose legacy is, do you run the gamut? We

Jessica Gillingham  23:15  
do sometimes with very new startups, but they would have to really convince me that they're going to be around for a while, and that, you know, they really thought through. I mean, I often say no to businesses or startups, because I can see that they're looking at this and they haven't really worked out other parts of the business. So, you know, that would be so anything, you know, probably Series A, Series B onwards would be absolute ideal, because they already have a kind of strategic marketing focus. They've shown viability for what they're doing. They're ready to kind of expand and grow and change and sort of, you know, get to that next stage. But we do, you know, go all the way through as well. And even though eight, like, I think it's 80% of our clients are tech companies, we do work with some operators, and then we also were, you know, with, we actually work with the UK short term accommodation Association over here in the UK as well.

Alex Husner  24:14  
A big part of PR, of course, is helping clients handle crises, right? And in today's age of social media and just everybody being so dialed into what's going on. I mean, how do you coach a client through a PR crisis, or just in general crisis, what have you found to be the most helpful things for them?

Jessica Gillingham  24:34  
So I think there's probably nothing worse than being caught up in a social media kind of crisis that is blown out of proportion, or is, you know, going down a route. I mean, I think we've all seen sort of toxic nature of social media that can be, you know, in our professional circles, in a way that you really wouldn't expect, but we've all seen it. And I think that, you know, crisis do. Happen. And, you know, things do happen that require really careful handling, and the number one thing is to get advice right away, like, don't do anything, say anything without, really, you know, getting somebody who, you know, a professional, really, who can help to look at it without the emotional response, who can really look at it from a from a strategic comms perspective, like, how do you need to be positioned here? What do you need to say so that you can dilute whatever it is as quickly as possible, rather than flanning fame? You know, it's not about winning and losing. It's about keeping your reputation intact and your brand intact, and also sometimes doing the right thing as well, whatever that might be. And that might be that it's a public apology, or it's, you know, whatever it might be, but it's also remembering that that dramas do die away, and if you flan the flames, they grow even more. You know, we never know what the crisis might be like. That's the whole point of it is, it's not expected, you know, it's not expected, but to always have some kind of a crisis plan in place so that you are able to be very consistent about what you say, very calm and things like that. So spend some time. It's a bit like in a business. You spend time looking at what the risks are, you know, and what what might be around the corner. At the same time, think about what your crisis communications plan might be, yeah,

Alex Husner  26:22  
are you advising clients to have that in place prior to a crisis? Then

Jessica Gillingham  26:26  
I've yet to get anyone to take me up on that. Nobody ever does it, you know, they tend not to. But I suppose you know, any client that work with us would, usually we would be the first one that they would, you know, like, so they sort of got that in built,

Alex Husner  26:42  
yeah. And we talk about, you know, Hurricane crisis planning from a marketing perspective, and we've talked about that on several shows over the years, and how you can have that plan in place so that if that disaster happens, that you know, you've got a list of all the different things that you need to do. I mean, the advertising that you need to turn off, the emails that need to go out to owners, to guests, any of the different services that you've got going. But anytime you can plan those things out advance, at least like have a framework, it certainly helps a little bit. It's, you know, a PR crisis is probably a little harder to plan for because you don't know exactly what the nature of it will be. But planning is always a good thing, no matter what we've learned that off

Annie Holcombe  27:20  
of crisis and Planning and Public Relations and the things that we have to deal with on social media. What do you think is something within the industry that either is being talked about too much or not enough?

Jessica Gillingham  27:34  
So I actually think that the industry talks a lot. I think there's a lot of othering that goes on in the industry, whether it's sort of, you know, not wanting, you know, other big brands to become successful, whether that's Airbnb, or whether it's a caster, or whether it's whomever, there's quite a bit of othering, like not really pulling together. Let's all you know. And what is that? That phrase, it's like a rising ship rises. Yeah. Lot of that. It's like, you know, there's a lot of, well, they're not doing a good job. We're seeing it, you know, at the moment with Burma, you know, not not picking the presentations that people wanted. So I think there's that othering that goes on. It's like, direct bookings the best. But you know, OTAs are the enemy. You know, lot of that stuff that goes on, which is important to do as well, because it's just it makes the industry seem less mature. You don't see hoteliers doing that, you know, you don't see that industry, then it's not that cohesive. Let's be a cohesive voice for our common good, which is, let's show why we are a great asset class that should be really a part of our communities and a part of the conversation of what, what is tourism, you know, and you know tourism management in cities and things like that, you need that cohesiveness. So that's what I think. I think there's a lot of other in and not enough cohesiveness and being one voice that would benefit everybody in this industry. And I think it's just the state that it's at, and I think it's also the fact that there's lots of small businesses and, you know, it's just the sort of the way it is. That's

Annie Holcombe  29:14  
a really good point, though. I think that that's valid. And we do sometimes get lost. I don't use to have a boss that always said, you get lost in the sauce. You know, there's just so much going on that you just, you just jump in head first and don't think about it. But I think you're absolutely right, because I will say I've been part of the conversation about panels not getting chosen for Verma, and more, from a frustration standpoint, I think it's, I think, but maybe we don't articulate the frustration in a way that can be fruitful for a good outcome. So I think your point is well made, yeah.

Jessica Gillingham  29:43  
And I think I understand those, you know, why people are frustrated, but it is almost like they're the, you know, they're the baddies, and whereas, actually, I think they have tried to demonstrate that they are listening and trying to do more and change. But change does take, you know? It does take a bit. Of time as well. Yeah,

Alex Husner  30:01  
it's really easy for things to get sensationalized in our industry. I've certainly learned that for the years. But on the topic of conferences, curious for I mean, your take on you know, where do you see things going? I'm sure. I know you go to all the conferences overseas and in Europe, and we're super excited to go to scale Italia this fall and get to see what a different kind of flavor is like over there. But I'm just curious for your take on, you know, where you think things could improve, or any ideas or suggestions or things you're hearing people talk about. I

Jessica Gillingham  30:31  
think so. I do go to lots of them, and I go to Burma as well. And have done, you know, for many years now, or, you know, certainly, since 2017 I think that we go to them for different reasons, don't we? We go to the networking. We go for the fact that, you know, you're with your peers. So if we think about it, for property managers, again, they're isolated, potentially running businesses like, you know, when you're running a business, you're on your own doing it. So being at a conference is a great place to be with your peers. And, you know, other property managers and things like that. We go there to check out the tech and, you know, to get the demos and see what it is that we need and want to grow and, you know, develop our businesses. We go for the education and what we can learn. And, you know, there was a time when there were only a couple of really big conferences, and we've also seen ones go as well, you know, conferences that were really quite big, you know, seven, eight years ago don't exist anymore, you know. And so I think it will be a slide like that. I think that there are definitely ones that are better than others. I think the ones that are the better ones are the ones that put their attendees at the center of the experience, you know, not their speakers. They put their attendees at the center and make sure that this, that the experience that they're having is the best one that they could possibly have. And those are the ones that that continue to lead so, you know, like VR, W s Antonio's conference in Europe. You know, he really, I think, puts his attendees, the property managers, at the center of that conference, the scale community do as well. You know, they really do that as well. And again, I think it varies on what you're looking for at the conference as well. You know, whether it is that networking, or it's the education, or it's because you want to buy some new tech, or you want to, you know, figure out revenue management a little bit more, or whatever it is that you might be, but I do know that one of the things that people are getting really frustrated about is that they're the same people at all of the conferences. Now by that, I don't mean the same speakers. I could hear good speaker 10 times and wouldn't get bored because they are saying different things. And you might be at a different journey, you know, place in your journey, but when you're when all the attendees are the same, you know, and it's just like the conference circuit. It's a bit like the tennis circuit or something. It really is, yeah, city that at some point the vendors are going to get very frustrated with that, because they spend a lot of money. There's a huge amount of budget that goes into conferences, that whether there's a return on that, personally, I think they'd be better off putting a sizable chunk of that into PR and reach, you know, a broader but I think when you're just seeing the same people, that little pool that is where the wheels potentially might fall off in the next couple of years. I

Annie Holcombe  33:20  
agree with that, and I think it's challenging. But it goes back to, how do we grow attendance? How do we bring in these people? That because, you know, I was at the skiff conference, the short term rental forum that they held, and there was some stats that they shared about the percentage of the pie, that is people who are less than, you know, 20 units, and that's 90 plus percent of the industry within just in the US. I don't know what the I think it's a little different in Europe, because there are so many big players in Europe versus how it is in the US. But that just means there's, there's this whole world to grow. And to your point, as a vendor, I look at it from my standpoint as a vendor, if I'm going to see the same person at four conferences, well, I'm just going to go to one and take that money and do something else with it, because it has gotten so cost prohibitive to do these things. I mean, it's just it's expensive, and so how do we encourage more participation, so that ultimately there's more educational opportunities, there's more attendance, so the vendors are happy, because without the vendors, you really can't put on these conferences, because they're the ones that are paying the top dollar to have their booth, to pay for some of the speakers, and they'll vendor the locations. So it's, it's a cyclical thing, but we, we need to do a better job, and that's where I struggle with is, what does that look like? Is it? Is it coming from within the community of vacation, short term rentals that we have to collectively say, like you said, our voice together. I thought we were going to get there after covid. I thought we were going to have a more collective voice, and it just hasn't seemed to come to fruition yet. But, but what do we do? I mean, like, from your standpoint, do you think there's anything we can do?

Jessica Gillingham  34:55  
It's a really interesting but tricky question as well. And my view. You is that it probably is a kind of a way forward. Is probably smaller events like so for instance, the scale. They probably won't mind me saying this. They went for the big scale this year in May, the Barcelona one. But I think they really learned that actually they didn't get the payoff. The sponsors didn't get the payoff for that. And so they've gone back to doing the smaller ones like and really focusing and doubling down on like just having Italy, just having UK, just having Spain, and having a smaller number of attendees, and with that, perhaps a smaller number of suppliers there as well, and make it a little bit more manageable cost wise, but then on top of that, they're building a community. So there are other ways to reach your customers, rather than face to face at a conference like it. It always almost seemed quite old fashioned to me, that that's what we still do. You know, it's like that's where a huge part of the marketing budgets for vendors might be, is there, and that's where everybody else is. But I think there's a lot of that is, I think it's the brave vendor that says, Do you know what? I'm not going to do it this year. You know Now, having said that face to face, person to person, is fundamental as well, and vital, but I just think that there's a different way of doing it. It's more intimate. It's perhaps your own events, or whatever it might be, rather than these big trade show ones.

Annie Holcombe  36:25  
I agree. And I think there's been a lot of conversation about trying to put more of these regionalized events on, you know, especially in the US, and we've got to do something. But I think again, it comes to everybody has to participate, and how do we get more participation? And so there's 10 different ways we could take this conversation, but I think we've got a lot of work to do still. Yeah, you've

Alex Husner  36:44  
got to make it fun. You've got to make it, you know, worthwhile for people to go to. I know, last year, Verma still had, I think they had an Austin connect and an LA connect. And, I mean, it was just very, very minimal attendance at those so it's like, you know, they were doing these regional ones, and they didn't work out. And so that's why they were cut. And now everybody's saying, let's go back to regional which I agree. I think there's a lot in that, but something's got to be done to get people to want to go to it. I mean, there's a lot of people. I mean, in the Myrtle Beach market, there's probably, I would say, at minimum, 75 to 100 rental companies. When I go to a Verma event, it's the same four or five of us that go to them. And even if something came here, I don't know that they would just go to it. I mean, like you've it really has to be kind of like a grassroots like, really going to them, really targeting them, reaching out to them. I mean, that's where, you know, PR, podcasting, all of that, comes into play, because people get their information and in different ways and different things are going to make them take action to go and check it out. But interesting times, for sure, for vendors, I think that's got to be a struggle right now, looking to the future and not knowing what the return is going to be on these big expenses, going to conferences, only time shall tell. Well, it has been a pleasure having you with us today, Jessica, we've wanted to have this interview for quite a while now, so very glad that you were able to join us and just to learn a little bit more about abode, and hopefully our audience learned some more about you and the company as well. But in the meantime, if anybody wants to reach out and get in touch, what's the best way for them to get in touch with you? So they

Jessica Gillingham  38:17  
can get in touch through LinkedIn, I'm on LinkedIn, or through my email, they can directly email, which is Jessica at abode worldwide.com, I'm always happy to answer questions, give opinions on things or whatever. So you know, really happy to hear from anyone that's

Alex Husner  38:34  
great. You've definitely helped me out a few times. So I do appreciate that. If anybody wants to get in touch with Annie and I you can go to Alex and Annie podcast.com and until next time, thanks for tuning in, everybody.