Unintended Consequences: How NYC’s STR Ban is Impacting Homeowners, with RHOAR

Alex Husner  0:03  
Welcome to Alex and Annie: the real women of vacation rentals. I'm Alex.

Gia Sharp  0:06  
And I'm Annie.

Alex Husner  0:08  
And we are joined today with two ladies. We have Margenett Moore-Roberts, who is a host in Brooklyn, New York and a member of RHOAR. And Gia sharp, who is the co founder of RHOAR. Ladies, it's so great to have you here today.

Margenett Moore-Roberts  0:23  
Thank you. It's great to be here.

Gia Sharp  0:26  
So we were talking off camera. And one of the things that I told you we wanted to do was we wanted to bring in more, more people in our podcast world that weren't where we're coming from when we worked. Costigan speak today, coming from where we work in the larger management space. And I had the privilege of watching margin a on stage in the skiff conference in New York recently. And she gave a very impassioned speech and conversation and talk and answer great questions about what you guys both do as hosts in New York and some of the things that you've been facing. So I thought, before we get started, each of you could introduce yourself and kind of talk about your experience leading up to roar, and then we can get into what Roar is all about.

Margenett Moore-Roberts  1:13  
Okay. Do you want to start? Sure, sure.

Gia Sharp  1:16  
Hi, I'm Gia. Thanks so much for having us, ladies, I'm really excited to for this conversation. So I have been living in New York for 25 years, I think. And yeah, and we've bought our house like 11 years ago, on like, FHA loan, you know, just really scraped by to get it. And we have a two family. And so I'd say a few years ago, we decided to do short term rental, because we had family staying in our second unit and, and so we'd spent a lot of money redoing it and, you know, looked into it, you know, wanting to family, homeowners can do this, you know, small homeowners can do this. And this new regulation does not include you. So we started and it was going great. And then found out no, that was not true. So thankfully, another co founder of or just posted on a message board saying, hey, let's let's fight this thing. And I was like, yes, let's do that. And that was a over a year ago. And so we've been advocating ever since to get this right back. And you know, we've got hundreds of homeowners that are struggling and we see in real time like what the effect of this legislation that was not nuanced has brought on just regular people trying to survive.

Margenett Moore-Roberts  2:40  
Yeah, and I'm Margenett Moore-Roberts, I I've been in New York over 20 years as well, I guess I'm a formerly a New Yorker, now. You know, we look to buy a house here. After we had our daughter, we looked to buy a house for a long time six or seven years, we just kept getting out big kept getting outbid kept getting out bid, every time I thought I'd had enough money saved to do it, you know, the market would tick up another 10 20%. And, you know, when we finally found this house, it was definitely a stretch by for us, we, you know, we had we knew we could, you know, meet the monthly payment. But you know, as everybody warned you, it's not just about the monthly payment. And so, we always thought, Okay, we have the second unit, you know, we will use that to supplement the other costs of homeownership. So we spent a couple years just living here getting it together idea said we had to do some renovations to make it right for our family. And, you know, helping a couple friends out, you know, who needed a place to stay for a while in the early days. And finally, we got it to a point where we could do some, you know, rental or earn some income from from the second unit. And, you know, we went into it very cautiously. We thought we'll do it a little bit at a time. And you know, once we got into a rhythm, it was great for us, we knew we wouldn't always want someone in our second unit just depending on what was going on in our lives. But when it was necessary, and when we could, you know, we were able to do it. So we started hosting in 2017. And for the most part have had a really positive experience up until we ran into these local laws being enforced in New York City. And for many of us wanting to family homeowners, we were shocked to learn that we were included in those in those regulations. Because up until, you know, the point of enforcement, we were told that it wasn't about one and two family private homeowners so I joined I you know, I started you know, trying to figure it out, you know, I sat on day long meetings fighting trying to make my voice heard, did not come across more directly. For I have no idea why but you know, then I was eventually contacted by one of the CO the other co founders and she asked me if I wanted to, you know help and absolutely you know, I mean Here to help myself, my own family, but also for all every other, you know, wanting to family homeowner who's been impacted by this. It's a serious impact. So I'm here for the cause.

Alex Husner  5:14  
What a journey. Looking back on when the legislation went into place, I mean, just fill us in a little bit on the details of when that happened, what, what changed between when you initially thought that this was not going to impact you? And then you found out that it was like, what happened during that time period?

Gia Sharp  5:34  
Sure, I can do that. So originally, there was just talk, just, you know, through the media, that there, there was this huge legislation and these larger buildings in the city, were complaining that they were had so much transients in and out and it was it safe with all these people coming and going, and they were going to fix that. And so, and for very long time, you know, even like, officials were saying, it's not one or two family home, or it's not private homeowners, we're talking about larger buildings. So that's what we all assumed was correct. And so early last early 23. It, they said, it's about this law is about to come into effect. And it actually does include private homeowners. And so that was, and it's going into effect in September of 2023. So we had very little notice to understand and that really wasn't noticed, this is like just also the media reporting it, there was no official notice or education campaign by the city at all. So we had no idea that this was happening. And, and so just the drips and drabs, you get from media were like, we finally found out and so they had a kind of a temporary period before they enforce and that was starting in September. So you know, whatever. Like, I think people were still trying to, like get as much, you know, business as they could to save up and, and then on the platform side, and on the host side, the separate, you know, the the tie was cut. And so the because the the enforcement is on both sides, they have to enforce against the platforms and against the host as well. So So yeah, I mean, most people use platforms, because it's a vetted and safe way to, to get guests, and it just makes it easier. And so it's just yeah, it's really unfortunate, because a lot of people, we have people that are that are just hurting so badly. I mean, we I've we have one member that is has moved out of his home, in order to rent it long term, she doesn't lose it, because he can't make enough money to pay his own mortgage. You know, I mean, like, things are just expensive here, you know, and so people need that income. So, you know,

I was gonna say to say, when, when this when you determine that this is going to affect you is that when roar started, or was more something that came about through the process? Yes.

Oh, sorry. Yes. So like in that spring 2023, when it started becoming more in the media, that's when we started because Jeanne, one of our co founders, she posted that message on on the message board, and, you know, all of us were up in arms, and I raised my hands, yes, let's do this. And so several of us ladies came together and started more and started advocating and, you know, also spoke out a lot on those message boards to, you know, gain people, gain supporters and members. And, you know, we've got lots of great members throughout the city, and in all five boroughs. And so, yeah, that we've been active since spring 2023.

Margenett Moore-Roberts  8:43  
Yeah, and I was just going to add, I think, two Gs point, the information was very uneven. Throughout this process, I  , I got wind of it somehow. And I, you know, in the early part of 2023, attended some all day, what they call listening sessions, and, you know, public comment sessions and periods. And we all were still in the mode of making sure that the city understood that people on the calls that I was on, we were on the mode of making sure the city understood, we are a unique constituency, we are not the bad actors, we're not hoarding inventory. These are private homes. And you know, at that time, we were still very much in the mode of, of believing that, you know, we would not be included in your final wrap up. And so there was some early start stops, you know, they were like, it's going into effect. No, it's not, we're gonna delay it, we're going to take a new look at it. And, you know, a lot of different, you know, points of view are being considered, you know, there was a suit involved. We thought we were going to win. It was just a lot of up and down, back and forth. Trying to figure out are you included, are you not? Did we win the suit? Do we not like it was just so many different points. And so, you know, by the time we got to September and enforcement was taking place for me, I think I was like already exhausted, and I'm thinking Oh, my goodness, so what are we going to do that so and then finding more I was like, Alright, let's get fired up. Let's go. You know, we can, there were so many ways in which this was confusing and not fully considered, including the fact that most of the current City Council wasn't a part of the decision when it was made in 2018. That's a really weird thing about this law is actually passed in 2018. And then enforcement didn't happen till 2023. And so in that gap of time, I think people just, you know, wanting to them and homeowners, we really were operating under the belief that we would not be included. So it was just took a long time to get organized and get ourselves together, just in order to start to find it and advocate for ourselves.

Alex Husner  10:41  
Gosh, and what is the main mission of roar? And what is the mission at this point? I mean, what options do you have? And and you know, what, what is? What, what does life look like for you if you're able to get some sort of success in the future?

Gia Sharp  10:58  
Well, the hope is that we were advocating, you know, to our elected officials to create amendments to that law, because the law is too, too broad and too sweeping and swept us up and was not supposed to. So hopefully, we can get unrestricted access or pet right to short term rentals, because we have, there's a lot of regulation around it, you cannot have any locks on doors, you cannot have more than two people, you must be present in the same unit. And they don't count me owning my house and living my house as the same unit when I have a second, a second unit or and they don't count the count it if you're in a single family, and you will need to go you're going away for vacation and want to rent your space. While they're while you're away. They don't count that as being present. So it's really odd, because you know, hotels, their locks on the doors, no one's expected to be to share your hotel room with you. You know, exactly. It's really weird. So we were just really don't understand that those just don't make sense. And so we're trying to fight for our right to have unrestricted access to the short term rentals.

Yeah, yeah. Like, anybody, just on what you're saying, I'm sorry. Do you feel like you have anybody on the legislative side within the government that's listening, that you or is helping you kind of navigate through this? Because I think that that's always the biggest challenges is trying to figure out like, who to go to, like, who are the right people and the right players to have a seat at the table with,

right. I mean, we're all constituents. We are all TECHSPEC. taxpayer. So we're advocating to our elected leaders. And we're hearing a lot of sympathetic ears, and we're hoping that there's, you know, there's going to be someone's really listening to make some progress on this. So, you know, it's just a constant. It's what we have to do. It's like it's a constant battle. We're not moneyed interest, you know, or not, the hotel lobby that spent $2 million dollars to get this passed, you know, we're just regular people.

Margenett Moore-Roberts  13:08  
just wanted to interject to to do this point to say we're not anti legislation, like our regulations, we do not support, you know, the people who were exploiting the market and what you know, and there was some exploitation, we all have to be honest about that. What we are saying is that for, you know, wanting to family, private homeowners, most of us are, you know, lower to middle income homeowners, there is such a thing. We're just trying to hold on to our homes and make ends meet. And so there there is, I think, to the point you made earlier, and there are different all short term rentals are not the same. Different people are in it for different reasons. And you know, what we're trying to represent, are the constituents like ourselves, who are private homeowners and wanted to families, we've all tried to do the right things here. And really create an opportunity for ourselves to stay self sufficient. Take care of our families, housing, security, financial stability, and just really stay in the city we love. You know, we're GNI growth transplants, we love New York, I want to be here. But in order to stay here and maintain a life for my family, this is one of the, you know, ways that I need to make income.

Alex Husner  14:16  
Right? Yeah. And I think it really doesn't matter where you are when when legislation comes down the the people that are doing right by this type of business model, everybody's in agreement that regulations are a good thing. I mean, they're there, if done correctly, to keep people safe, and, you know, to better the community. But I mean, in this case, we just had Marcus radar, who's the CEO of hosts on our show just recently, and he was in New York City when we recorded that episode. He had just gotten done with skift that you guys were at? And he said he had booked originally on Airbnb and then the legislation came down and he couldn't book it on Airbnb. So the host reached out to him and he booked it on Craigslist, I think and it's like, you know, now it's we're going back to a different era of time where things were not as safe. I mean, Airbnb has created at least some ways that you can make sure that you do have good renters and, and that the property is is what it says it is. And now we're going, you know, in a much, much darker direction 100

Margenett Moore-Roberts  15:23  
I think that's I think that's right, I heard that a podcast, I heard Marcus who's he's funny, but one of the points he he made, you know, I think it's super important. Like, there's no accountability, and a system, you know, that that cannot be regulated or monitored. And when people get desperate, you know, unfortunately, some people have turned to Craigslist, or, you know, ways that, you know, other ways of getting guests and creating income, using their property, like one of the big, big messages at this gift conference was, these are assets that we will earned and that we're trying to leverage in order to take care of ourselves. It's not that should not be we shouldn't be made to feel bad about leveraging the assets that we've that we've acquired over time. And when you give people the option of losing your home, or, you know, doing something that's a little bit less safe, you know, some some people are going to choose to use a Craigslist or to use an unregulated platform in order to maintain, you know, take care of their families and maintain their lot the lives that they built. So that's an important, he made a really great point there. And I'm really grateful that he made it, but I don't think it can be overstated. Like we're introducing a level of, you know, a new level of danger, in terms of having strangers inviting strangers in your home, how do you get paid? How do you transfer the money? How do you make sure, you know, the person is a person? You know, when they're contacting you? There's just so many reasons why, you know, enabling it. above board is the right thing to

Alex Husner  17:01  
do. Yeah,

Gia Sharp  17:03  
so you guys have a little over five, then you sit around 550. member, and you represent all the boroughs in New York. And so obviously, that's, that's a pretty good cross section of the community and all different socio economic types, I would imagine. What do you, you know, how do you get that voice collectively together? Because it's there. I mean, the space and people in the different boroughs are all different. I mean, you know, it's like, they love different baseball teams, they love different football teams. So how do you get everybody together? And like, what is that collective message? And like, what are you what are you doing to get it out there and advocate for yourselves, because again, New York is a big city, it's very easy to feel lost, just walking down the street, I can only imagine stuck in bureaucracy what that feels like

100%. So our members are in at least three quarters of the council, city council districts. So we are, you know, it's basically foot soldiers out and going, you know, advocating to their own as constituents to their own council members. And also, we've got lots of tools on our website, more.org. That, that can send letters directly to count to the council to the mayor to at from different and actually soon, from different constituencies from the tourists point of view, the visitor or the supporter, like, there's plenty of people in New York where the apartments are like a postage stamp that can't host their own family in their home, when they're when their mother comes to visit to help with their new with a new grandchild. And so those types of people can, you know, sign on to our website and send a letter very soon, within a week of support. I mean, honestly, everybody should be calling their council members and the city officials because we all use this, especially in New York, at one point or another whether we're hosts or guests, because we all need it. I've Weber's too. And this is also Brooklyn is land of Brooks because there's water running under us. And so every time it rains really hard, there's a flood and someone's base in it and I can't tell you how many times on a message boards where it's like I've got to leave my house for a few days, I need a place to stay. And so we host our neighbors and so you know, there's so many different types of people that need it. And so we are advocating for all we're trying to get all of them and kind of shouting it from the rooftops to speak up to their to their elected officials about how important this is to have it in the local communities. And no, we're not going to be able to stay in a hotel in Times Square when our basement gets flooded. I live in Brooklyn, so

Margenett Moore-Roberts  19:46  
and I would say like overall us about the diversity of our constituencies and it is very bright. It's people who are raising kids now people who are empty nesters people who once were you know financial We bury stable and now excuse me once

Gia Sharp  20:16  
Yep, I'll, I'll just pick up from marginalia. We've just have a very wide variety of age groups. You know, especially we've got people that are retired people that are disabled people that are self employed, unemployed, there's just such a plethora. And there's such a, an idea that people just because you own something in New York, you must be wealthy. And that's so insane because the majority of the houses are in the far flung neighborhoods, where it's not these multimillion dollar houses. I mean, we're people that have had these houses for many years with some many generations, and are just trying to hold on to this family home for you know, multiple generations of our family. So it's just a very, very diverse, but call it mistake. Yeah, no,

Margenett Moore-Roberts  21:04  
no, no. Somebody who wanted to make that point. But what I was what I was really, I was also getting that that is one of the parts of the point, but it's really bigger than, you know, any single organization, it's bigger than more, it's bigger than the platform's right, this is not an issue for the OTAs for, you know, Airbnb, or vulnerable or even furnish fine, etc. It really for us in New York, it's about individual homeowners being able to hold on to their homes. The reality is, if we are forced to leave our homes, because we can't afford it, the inventory here is so so tight, there's nowhere for us to go, you know, we would most most people be forced to leave New York. And so we're trying to create, you know, the narrative, like there's a lot about housing affordability. There's a lot about the housing crisis in general in New York, what we're asking is that existing homeowners also be included in that conversation, most of the conversation now and really focuses on new enabling new homeowners or taking care for insurers, obviously, these are important constituents. We don't want anyone to not have anywhere to live. But you know, once you're in your home, the stakes are super duper high, in terms of, you know, holding on to it. And so we're trying to create a narrative for our elected officials and individuals that says, you know, he New York, New York, to keep people in their homes is very much a part of the housing crisis and the housing affordability conversation. But also, if you want New York to not be a place for only a very small set of wealth, very wealthy people, then you have to enable that for people who need alternative means of affording your homes. And that includes short term rental.

Alex Husner  22:48  
I think the sad one of the sad things about this is that it was done behind the scenes, it sounds like and that there was a lot that was done that just you didn't know what was going on. And then all of a sudden, there's nothing that you could do. And I've seen that happen in many other different instances, and not just short term rentals, but just in different places that I've lived. And one of the things that I've also seen is that if a big initiative comes out, and then there's a lot of pushback on all of it or part of it. The other side typically says, well, we can't go back to the table to fix one part of it, because then it could blow up the entire thing all together. Is that kind of what they're saying up there? Or is what's the conversation? Do you think within the political side?

Gia Sharp  23:33  
I think early on, yes. I mean, I think that's, I mean, I It's like they don't want to give an inch. And so I think that's a political maneuvering. I mean, that I'm learning that they they want to hold faster, they get what they got they want. But even if they know that it's not the right thing, just because they get most of what they want. So and I think that's yeah, I mean, I hope that, you know, we're hopeful that they are seeing you know, it the proof is in the pudding. Has the housing crisis abated? No, it has not. But you know, but hotels are making an additional $380 million a year. So yeah, that's very

Alex Husner  24:15  
clear who Yeah.

Annie Holcombe  24:20  
I wouldn't touch on that.

Margenett Moore-Roberts  24:21  
There's nuance Sorry, I just want to make the point. There's room for nuance in the law. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. And I think, you know, again, the reason why we were you know, we didn't organize for probably wasn't organized until, you know, after the beginning of the year was because we really thought that the law and there's there's documentation that there was talk of exists of exempting one and two family homeowners when this law was originally being considered back in 2018. And so we really thought that that was the way forward but you know what we would what we would say our appeal is there's still room for nuance. You don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater either way, we believe in common sense regulation. And we believe that wanting to family homeowners, private homeowners should be exempt. And there's a way for the city to, to to endorse that. And, and there's a way for, you know, the platforms to endorse it as well. So that's a very narrow carve out. And it's a very reasonable solution.

Gia Sharp  25:21  
Yeah, I wanted to touch on something gau had commented that there was the money that the hotel lobby had spent, and that's come up in many other destinations and from experience for myself, when COVID happened, and there was the lock down here in Florida, when they reopened, our governor said, well, hotels are their, you know, their, their necessities, we have to have hotels open. And it flew completely in the face of what all this COVID protocol was about, you know, having your own space and having your own facilities to be able, again, bathrooms, and all these type of things. And so we were all sort of baffled at it. And then there was a lot of I'm not gonna say I ever saw the proof of it. But I certainly there was definitely an underlying tone that there was the hotels were involved in, in making sure that that narrative was which post was pushed along. But I'm curious, like, you know, for a city like New York, that does have so many hotels, and the hotel lobby is very, very powerful. How do you look at that and think, like, okay, we can fight this, or we can get them to understand our side to help to your point margining, like, nuanced this, this law. I mean, that's a very big beast to fight. And I applaud anybody that wants to go up against it. But, you know, you know, 500 people up against something that has seemingly endless coffers to dip into, what is your approach there?

I mean, the reality is, we're people and it's like, Are you against the people? Is that what your acts, you know, what I mean? And so it's like, we hold a mirror up to kind of the conduct and what's happening, and what the reality is, and that we are actually just, we are New Yorkers, we are the real New York, you know, we're not some, you know, foreign owned, you know, hotel chain, or whatever, you know, like, we're not this multi billionaire that probably has his own private jet. And, you know, we're not any of those people. We're actually New Yorker. So I think for us, that is our strength. Because we're, you know, I mean, sometimes you have to live in what's right, you know, and, and hold it up and make people account for it. So it's hard. It's hard, because we're there's also political realities, and we get it. But we're, I don't know, I don't know, marginally, what do you

Margenett Moore-Roberts  27:46  
think that's right, you know, what, what I would say is, you know, we're not the enemy. We, you know, hotel lobbies, we fear not, you know, my little house in Brooklyn, and even the collection of poems by, you know, owned by our members and other people who may not even be, you know, or members there, we pose no threat, you know, instead, we are maintaining the communities. You know, if you think about right now, I think the average price for a hotel in New York City is $300 a night 300. And that's for a low end hotel. You know, during the holidays, we saw some data, I think around Memorial Day weekend, where it was started at $600 a night going up to $1,200. This very quickly becomes an equity issue and economic equity issue, who can afford to visit New York? And if you have a family of more than two people that you don't want to stop

Alex Husner  28:42  
we lost your volumes to yah.

Margenett Moore-Roberts  28:52  
I'll take I hit. So if you if you have a family that you don't want to push into a tiny you know, hotel room, when you have two more than two people, then your best option is to stay in a home with a with a host family where you can spread out and you can afford to buy a loaf of bread and a dozen eggs and eat, you know, within your room. So this very quickly for the hotel lobby, we would just say, you know, we know that business is important. But take a look at really who you're fighting, you're punching down. You're punching down, we are not your competition by any means. Now, if you want to look at, you know, people who ordered rooms, the quote unquote bad actors, I think that the law was designed to address that. And it's done that by and large. You know, we saw that from the Real Estate Board of New York. And so by and large, a lot of the the regulation has been successful in, you know, normalizing things in big apartment buildings. What we say is the law has gone too far. And you know, the hotel lobby you probably have members in that union who own home Oops, they're not close today, they may need to host in the future. So, you know, it's very much we're not fighting them. Because we're not equipped to that. We know, we know that's a fool's errand. But we will just emphasize that our goal is not to obtain any industry, our goal is to hold on to our homes. And as people as representatives of people who are New Yorkers who likely own homes, who likely need to hold on to those homes, to have housing security for their families, you ought to be supportive, you ought to be supportive of the advocacy work that we're doing. And I think there's a real opportunity to sort of fill that gap.

Gia Sharp  30:40  
I agree, I would also add to that is that many of the private homes are actually in the low lying districts, which are outside of the city center, and are nowhere near any hotels, you know, like there are no, there really are no, you know, hotels in those areas, which is part of why this is such kind of a community benefit that, you know, people would be able to do, you know, host people because there were also their family going to stay, you know,

Margenett Moore-Roberts  31:04  
that's right. I'm sorry, one more point to you just reminded me of that, you know, we've really been thinking about, you know, the effect it has on us as homeowners. But what is also true is short term rental opens up micro economies in our community. So you're talking about people who clean you know, those people who have been really impacted people who are in the short term rental industry in their neighborhoods to earn extra money to take care of their families, the cleaners, the people who manage the properties, the small businesses, the bodegas and restaurants in these neighborhoods, they've also taken a hit, right? Because they haven't been able to get that constant influx of new customers, the constant influx of incremental revenue. So it goes beyond the individual homeowner you're talking about, you know, neighborhoods in creating economic opportunity where people live. So that has to be considered in this this conversation as well.

Alex Husner  32:00  
Yeah. Has roar. Have you communicated with Airbnb at all on this? I mean, I feel like if anybody can, can fight this or has the budget to fight it, it's gonna be air b&b. But

Margenett Moore-Roberts  32:12  
yeah, we want to talk to all like, you know, the skiff conference was great in that regard, because we were able to not only, you know, connect with the folks from from Airbnb, but we are also able to connect with furnish finder, future stay with Philip, I got a connection to air b&b finder to verbose. So we really believe that this issue will affect any business that relies on small homeowners in order to make money. And so, you know, we're open to doing as much coalition building, as makes sense, you know, as long as it aligns to our original mission, you know, our mission remains to, you know, get an amendment for these regulations for one and two family, homeowners. And if there's an organization out there, obviously, you know, within reason, you know, they were to make deals with the devil, so to speak, you know, but we really believe it's beyond any single platform. This is not an issue for, you know, about verbo. It's not an issue about the single platforms, it's larger than that. So to the degree that organizations that are, you know, travel related, but also the banks, you know, the banks have been out here saying that they want to help people own homes for the first time. You know, our appeals help people keep the homes that they're already in, hopefully, that mortgage payment. So we think we need to do you know, we've done as much as we could do as a grassroots organization on an individual basis, we've gotten the story out, but now we need the coalition bill. So you know, that's why we're super appreciative of opportunity to share your your platform here. But we want as many people with big megaphones as we can to tell the stories of individual homeowners who are in danger of losing their homes, and how vital this income is, you know, for people who are trying to make ends meet financial lives change, you know, the bottom line is, you know, you have a good, you have a couple of good years, then you might have a couple of down years and you might rebound. You know, we need people need a way to weather the financial storms of life, especially the financial storms that New York City can bring on. Yeah, I think we need this possible.

Gia Sharp  34:21  
I find it interesting that this was all in play before COVID, because it seems like so much has happened since COVID. And so the New York was obviously thinking about this and had some had some problems that they were trying to I guess probably play Whack a Mole with would be my guess, are things popping up everywhere. And I'm sure COVID just exacerbated kind of what the what the thought process is. And you mentioned that the people that kind of put the regulatory, like framework together weren't actually the ones that were there when it was when it was implemented. So have any of those people have you gone back to any of those people and been able to talk to them to maybe get their insight on like, again, totally different worlds that post COVID that they would have done it differently. Like, if you haven't been able to talk to any of those people

not really know. I mean, you know, a lot of them kind of left public service. Yeah. Like, you know, see you later, here's the gift for you, you know? Yeah. So now, not really, I mean, it would be interesting to hear, I mean, like, just in our own research, we could see that there was influence on codes and regulations going back, you know, at least 10 to 12 years, that people have been lobbying for changes quietly in the codes over years to kind of culminate in this legislation. And which is disturbing, because that means that really, our rights were changing all along, we just didn't know about it, and they weren't enforcing it yet. And they needed this legislation to start enforcing it. So but none of us knew it. So we didn't know to fight it. We didn't know, you know, any of it, which is not that's shouldn't be the way the government is run. But

Margenett Moore-Roberts  36:11  
I feel like I found out there's no Santa Claus, I mean, color mean it. I mean, I think what just is so important, because it's all about, we have to keep our you know, what I've learned is we have to keep our eye on the ball locally, obviously, and nationally, because a lot of the enforcement of the current regulations would not have been possible without the changes that were they started making back in 2018. And before, because they were little teeny changes to the housing code. At one point, it specifically said one and two family, you know, homeowners the definition of an illegal hotel started at three plus families, then they changed it to include one and two, family homes as well. So all of those little adjustments along the way, those things made a big difference in making it and making sure that current state could be endorsed. And I think that's super important. And the other point, I made this at skiff, but I just think we have to keep saying this, like regulations that are put in place today have long, far reaching implications. You know, if you look at the fact that there's a lot of other stuff going on, it's not just regulations around short term rental, this is one thing, but also look at the Forever renter movement, people are being discouraged from buying homes now. And if you go forward for a generation of people who decide I don't need to own a home, that's the major vehicle for creating wealth for creating financial stability for families. So a lot of these regulations are going to impact that as well, you're going to, you're going to send the whole process backwards, fighting to close the racial wealth gap. And in this case, in New York, a lot of people who are being affected by this law are families of color, you know, people are deciding to leave, right because they can't afford to stay. But the long term impact of that as you just you literally have 200,000 fewer black families in the in the city as you've had over over 20 years ago. So these are not these are not free of impact. You know, we're fighting for this one law. But really, if you put all of these pieces together a different picture, or a more dire picture will emerge as well.

Annie Holcombe  38:24  
And in our roads, the tax base, which ultimately takes care of the community, the schools, the fire department, the police department, i know i My father was a policeman growing up, I mean, I know how important those those things are. And if you don't have the tax base to support it, and that's where the cuts start to happen. And, you know, God knows what, what happens if your fire department doesn't have a truck to get to a house when it's on fire. But you're you're absolutely right. And I think people get lost in the sauce, so to speak, and forget that they need to look that sometimes these policies are a long game, for some political view or party or however you want it, you know, so like, this was something that, again, they were putting into place well before COVID. And so much regulation is coming in after COVID Because so many people entered this space, but you guys were doing the right thing and being good citizens and being good for your community and trying to get to the point of like trying to help build up your community and make it a better, more viable, vibrant place to live. And they just completely cut that and I guess took that still right out from under you without

Alex Husner  39:27  
even it'll be interesting to to see. I mean, what what the data shows after a year in of having these regulations. I mean, it's one thing for the hotels to report that Yep, they're full in their ADR is you know, just absolutely outrageous. But yeah. But looking at the impact that that has on New York City and the suburbs and the destination as a whole. I mean, there's there's a lot of people that are going to be impacted by this. So I know everybody wants hotels to do well, but at some point it's like The city leadership has to has to stand up to it because the impacts are just going to continue to ripple. Yeah, you're

Margenett Moore-Roberts  40:06  
absolutely right. And if you look at, you know, from 2022 to 2023, property shark reported that the foreclosure rates in New York City were up over 87%. And if you Brooklyn alone, it was something like 180%. If you go up to the Bronx, pre foreclosure filings were up over 19 100%. So you're absolutely right, the impact is not just on, you know, on us as individuals, it's not on the tourists, but it changes the whole fabric of the city. And we have clear evidence, there's documented data that tells us that people who are buying these homes, once people are forced out are, you know, people from overseas, and most of the time investors or developers, it's changing the fabric of the city. So you know, that's what's at stake here. You know, we're obviously we're fighting for a small constituency. But you're also we're, this is about the fabric of New York City. And to your point about your dad any, like middle income people who work very, very hard. These are not people who are not wealthy, who have to still work for a living, how do you hold on to homes that, you know, we have data that shows our insurance rates have gone up between 10 and 25%, you know, property taxes, because of you know, how many million plus dollar homes, they've gone up 15 to 20%. So even if you got your mortgage, even if you can make your monthly mortgage, what what you need help with is all the other stuff, the new windows, the new roof, and people like your dad, or anybody who has a job, you know, we're you know, they have to work hard. Those are the people who rely who generally that income bracket are the folks who really need to rely on supplemental income. And, you know, you can only work your people work two jobs already, you know, someone like, you know, people, so I think there's a lot more at stake than what meets the eye right now.

Annie Holcombe  42:04  
I think there's a lot, there's a lot to be done. And there's a lot to keep focused on and for you ladies, you know, anything that we can do to obviously help you get your get your word out, we want to because this this, this impacts, not just the short term rentals in New York and impacts. I mean, it's impacting New Jersey in a great way. But what does that doesn't mean that it couldn't turn around and impact them the same way. So, and

Alex Husner  42:25  
it's coming for other cities, I'm sure, too. So I mean, this is just the first one for it to get this this bad. But I mean, if this starts becoming a thing, and all the major cities, I mean, now you've got a nationwide crisis.

Margenett Moore-Roberts  42:36  
Yeah, I mean, I think that there, I think that was kind of the focus is to get a one major, because it's like, the biggest market. Right? And, uh, once they have that, like now Barcelona saying that they're going to do away with it in two years, you know, completely, which is, yeah, I mean, we'll see what happens between now and then. But you know, like, that's, it's just kind of insane. You know, I mean, we definitely want livable cities. I mean, they're already so expensive, but we need to make sure that the people who live in them, it's livable for them, too, and actually affordable. And that's what this does, you know, we're responsible for result responsible laborers. Obviously, if someone's living in my space, or you know, with me, I'm definitely not going to be allowing like ragers and like, all kinds of jewelry. You know, and I think that's, that's kind of the nuance that we're that we're advocating for. But thank you so much again, you know, like for sure, I would love for your entire listening audience to check out more.org, our H O a r.org. And see how they can support because I'm sure plenty of people want to come to New York, and we'd love to host you, we just need to get some help on that advocacy.

That's right. And I you know, thank you g every for getting that in there. The real opportunity here is to let our elected officials know that their support broader than even if you're not a host, it makes common sense to help small homeowners particularly middle and lower income homeowners to hold on to their homes and using short term rental as a way to do that. So we are you know, if David and Goliath were a thing, you're not even we're not trying to fight the hotel lobby. That's not our fight to have into our homes and anyone who believes in that, who is a homeowner and believes that we should have helped and the right to use the assets that we've earned. To do that they can help I'm making their voice heard as well. So thank you so much for giving us the platform and to share your platform and your membership with us and give us the chance to have this conversation.

Alex Husner  44:45  
I'm so glad that Annie and Marge today that you met at skift Because what a different topic for us today when we talk about legislation and advocacy, fairly often on the show, but this is a very different perspective on it and and affecting people in a different way than the traditional vacation destinations. So I'm sure our audience is going to be interested to listen. And certainly we'll reach out and hopefully they'll support roar. If they want to reach out to individually outside of roar. Can they do that on the site? Or is LinkedIn good? Or email?

Gia Sharp  45:19  
I think, yeah, they can do that on the site. There's definitely, I believe, a contact us and on the site, and they can definitely, you know, if they've got ideas want to support? I mean, like I said, we'll have links to some letters. But we got we'd love to hear from people.

Margenett Moore-Roberts  45:33  
organize@roar.org Yeah. organize@rhoarorg.org. And hopefully, we if you're, if you're writing to support us, we want to hear it now. It's not so much

Annie Holcombe  45:51  
airpoints. But

Margenett Moore-Roberts  45:52  
organize, it was a good way to get directly to God in the other founders, and they normally move me in and then yeah, we'll take it from there. Advocacy, we have to be advocates for this work, because it gets away from you quickly. And this is probably going to something else in the future. We'd love to be a part of heading that off to.

Annie Holcombe  46:13  
Yeah, well, thank you so much for sharing your story and for allowing me to kind of attack you after skin Dass. Again, this is a completely different thing. But I think it just proves that the industry that Alex and I love, and obviously you guys love it for the perspective you're coming from. It's being attacked from all sides. And it's really important that we can get everybody collectively together to understand how to support one another or we're all going to be out of out of business.

Margenett Moore-Roberts  46:40  
That's right. That's right. Yeah, we It depends on each other. Yeah, there's, we have to figure out what this joint sort of Alliance looks like. Because I think one without the other, like they can't exist on their own. So yeah, we hopefully we continue that conversation too. That's a little bit of a different conversation, but it's an important one. Because even if we get the regulations and we're not able to support each other on the other side of that we still have a problem. So we will start working on that one now too.

Alex Husner  47:11  
Yeah. Absolutely. Well, thank you again, ladies, if anyone wants to contact me and I can go to Alex and Annie podcast.com And until next time, thanks for tuning in everybody.